2021 U of T Training Study, p/b TrainerRoad (2022 update: results posted!)

Staring at the TTE paper and thinking a few things:

  1. We need better objective biomarkers (labs). So we can better separate physiology from psychology. The authors address this somewhat in the text mentioning “suffering”.

When it comes to performance and test results, psychology is often the limiter. The result is the result, the data are the data. But if you have the physiology to support better results, but your psychology is the limiter, you are missing an opportunity to improve performance.

  1. There is quite a range in intra-group TTE. If we assume the appropriate power level was selected by each subject, then I wonder if the some of the difference in TTE is due to training methods (preparation)?

“Well Trained” or “Pro” have different meanings to different people. For example, I’ve been well trained, but with a focus on maximizing 20 min power, and at a different time, I’ve been well trained with a focus on TTE. My FTP would not have been much different during either period but TTE sure was. The former resulted in fragile peak fitness, the latter much more durable and resilient fitness.

  1. The 50 minute “warm-up” protocol is pretty stout. Bet that had a larger effect on the recreation and trained group’s results and less impact on the well trained and pro groups. The authors mention this in discussion.

  2. Given the individual variation, am taking away what we already know: if you are serious about maximizing your training, you should test and not rely on conversion factors. Use good test protocols, and test different parameters. Testing is training in many ways, so the strong resistance to testing by many bike riders who simultaneously sink tremendous time and money and effort into “training” is fascinating.

Fun stuff… tnx for link to the study.

The brain must be trained to reach the limits of physiology. Doesn’t seem like something biomarkers can capture.

It is possible for an average Joe at 3W/kg and recreationally trained to be an outlier on that study and push TTE out to +/- 60 minutes.

B3 for brain, body, bike. Always be training your brain and body.

CNS biomarkers are extremely difficult. I say that with experience developing drugs in the neuroscience arena. Not cycling specific experience but relevant enough to shape the understanding.

When I say biomarkers in the cycling performance context, am thinking about better ways to know how much potential is being extracted and what physiological effect different types of training are having.

For performance, to try and isolate, to some extent, CNS effects from muscular potential. Particularly when there is a brain vs muscular disconnect.

Let me try to explain - and this might not go well :slight_smile:

We have a decent measure of “performance” in the power meter and the stopwatch. The problem is that performance is a combination of physiology and psychology.

For the example of the 3 w/kg rider, that is a number, but we don’t know if that rider is extracting 99.9% of what their legs can do, or if their brain is intervening (pain response) and they are only extracting a lower percentage of their performance. Say 80% just for argument.

Point is, when we don’t have quantitative biomarkers we rely on surrogates. Since those surrogates are almost always performance, and performance is a combination of multiple body functions, it’s not necessarily going to provide the data, or metric that we need to improve.

But if we can’t measure the components (brain v brawn), how can any of this be useful other than academic argument (or Internet forum discussion amongst friends as the case my be)?

Well, in my limited subset of lactate testing and helping friends train, have seen some interesting phenotypes. I don’t have population frequencies for these phenotypes because sample set is too small.

The biomarker I have access to is lactate. It’s not perfect, but we can establish MLSS for a rider and see how that correlates to FTP. We can look at LT1 and see how RPE and HR correlate. RPE is interesting as a performance factor as we’ll see in another 3-4 thousand words…

Phenotype #1 This rider has a well calibrated RPE meter. Their brain and their brawn are in sync. When riding at MLSS they report an RPE in the 8-9 range (10 scale). It is hard, it hurts a bit, they can ride at this level for a fairly long time.

Usually with my gang we’re looking at 40k ITT performance. If I have these riders ride at say 90%, the RPE is 7-8 (which still hurts if done for long enough durations). If I push them to 110% they report RPE in the 9-10 range and they can ride this pace for reasonable time periods but eventually hit a wall and give up.

OK… Group #1 is hopefully the majority, and for those riders, FTP/MLSS and RPE will be very useful proxies. They can guess that they are performing at current capability, and devise training programs to try and improve.

As always, the fun stuff is in the outliers.

Phenotype #2. These guys have much less RPE sensation at relatively hard levels. They’ll report 6-7 at MLSS. That’s not a bad thing per se, but in a race situation it can be defeating. These guys will go too hard and drastically overshoot their MLSS. If its a 40km TT, these guys are happily chugging along at RPE 8-9-10 for the first 10 miles, but instead of being at MLSS, they are way over. They are going to blow up well before the end of the race because while the brain is happy, the legs are not.

Have a very good friend who is in this camp. He doesn’t report RPE 8-9-10 until he’s in the 115-120% and above range. He always blew up in longer races. We tested him and I showed him that while his brain is happy at 325w, his MLSS is actually 300w. We recalibrated and his performances improved. He can work on improving that MLSS, and know to calibrate his race pace to his physiology. His brain is not a limiter but since it’s not calibrated to his brawn, causes an issue in performance. These guys, BTW, will crush ramp tests and even 20 min tests so it looks like they are better than they really are.

Phenotype #3 is the opposite. These guys are reporting RPE 9-10 well below MLSS. They have the legs but they don’t have the brain!! If you can show them that there is a disconnect, there is a potential to raise their performance, sometimes by a lot. These guys will struggle with racing and testing and undershoot potential by a lot.

Take home:

(1) quantitative biomarkers are useful for isolating physiology from psychology and can be used to guide training and improve performance.

(2) It would be nice to have better and more accessible biomarkers and to be better able to measure and predict potential and understand how much of a riders potential we are extracting. (I’d also like a pony for my birthday)

(3) Different training drives different adaptations and causes different stress and limiters. ISM seems to argue that excursions into higher wattages has longer term effects on a workout and prevents adaptations. It would be great to know, and be able to measure if our workouts are having the intended outcomes.

Better markers, accessible markers, would be wonderful if we understood the systems and replace some of the multi-modal and surrogate proxies with actual quantifiable and specific data.

Might be something useful in there. I know I helped two guys improve with testing and changing their training and racing. Am taking that as a win and if the discussion helps someone else that’s great.

Hopefully am not wrong as don’t want to do any harm!! Also, I wrote that between meetings so hopefully it’s not too difficult to parse.

I don’t have a problem going too hard and blowing up lol, and these ethics boards are pissing me off. So if you want to crowd source a study and come out to NorCal for some ‘athletes past a certain age’ lactate testing let me know!

Someday, when we all have the TR face to face meet up somewhere, I’ll tell y’all some stories of IRBs gone mad.

<40 female here; I didn’t participate because at the time I was training for triathlons. I believe I checked in and was told I would have to give up the swim/run training for the duration and that was why I didn’t volunteer. I wouldn’t volunteer now because I’ve discovered track cycling and there’s no way I’d give that up through peak competition season.

I wonder if you didn’t get as much female participation because nobody wanted to give up the training time to participate properly in the study. By reaching out to athletes who are already coached/in teams, you’re asking people who probably have long-term performance goals/broad plans to suspend those, and possibly miss out on fitness gains they might have otherwise made.

Thanks for that feedback. I think you’re right. That was the most reported reason for drop-outs, and for people not signing up in the first place. Totally understandable. It’s why we wanted to run the study in the off-season, but maybe even by November/December people were ramping back into their own structured programs.

Although I don’t see why that would discourage females to a greater extent?

I’m a woman under 40, I participated and finished (turns out we’re a rare breed, AMA :laughing:). I work remotely and I don’t have kids.

This is my guess. I’m a huge geek and I live on the internet, so I’m all over the cycling subreddits and these forums and whatnot. The more normal human women in my local cycling club are aggressively not, they check the club’s private Facebook group, sometimes, and that’s about it. I think this is a lot like hiring in tech: if you want to recruit more of an underrepresented group, you have to go to where that group is, instead of going to where that group is already underrepresented and hoping you pick up a good demographic split. Colleges, cycling clubs in big cities, Instagram/Twitter/Facebook might all be good avenues for more targeted recruitment.

Obviously that’s all based on zero knowledge of your recruiting methods, so maybe you already did all that, in which case I got nothing. I’m sure you were impacted by the same factors that keep women out of the sport generally.

Great line.

That’s really valuable and obvious now that you put it like that. Thank you! (also thanks for participating!!)

We can always say “but we tried!” However, clearly the split speaks for itself, we didn’t try effectively enough.

There are some studies that simply can’t self-impose a requirement for equal sex split. One of my projects is like that now. Whoever we get, we get, to some extent. However, this kind of remote training study I think can and should self-impose that requirement. Maybe recruitment doesn’t stop and we start turning away over-represented subjects until we have an approximately equal distribution along whatever representative lines we need?

edit: yeah, great line. Can I (maybe) quote you (anonymously) in our manuscript? :grin: Gets to the heart of the limitation.

Yeah totally, when you have the option go to town!

OR I mean if you can make some estimates up front about what kind of population you expect to need for statistical validity? Maybe that’s equal, or maybe you could get away with 60/40 or 70/30 depending on the total size or something. I don’t know, I’m not an academic, just married to one :sweat_smile: The constraints might be a little more forgiving than hiring in tech because you’re really just going for “I need sufficient data”, not “CRAP WE’RE BUILDING BIAS INTO EVERYTHING HOW DO WE STOP DOING THAT”

:laughing: Sure!

Hah, eh that’s still exactly what we’re doing in academia :man_facepalming: Sport Science research is especially applicable to our “default subject” white/‘Western’ male 20-something uni student… but the further you are from that demographic? The less relevant it is for you. The less you fit our understanding of ‘reality’. That’s a bit scary.

I think it’s a toss up what’s more damaging in real-world terms: baking those biases into our algorithmic reality, or our understanding of meat-space reality :upside_down_face:

For discussion:

If we look at USAC demographics, and posit that is a reflection of “competitive” cyclists, and further posit that “competitive cyclists” are the target audience for this type of study, we see a couple of interesting things from the data:

  1. USAC license holders are roughly 83% Male and 14% Female (not equal to 100% because there is the category “other”). The data linked to below are from 2020. The trends are for decreasing numbers of racers overall, but we are losing women more rapidly.

The roughly 80:20 ratio by itself means recruiting woman subjects for a study is already not easy. Add in other factors as described above, and it’s more difficult.

  1. The same dataset shows age demographics. The largest age group is 45-54 (25% of license holders). Another 15% are 55-64. 65+ is another 12-15% By putting the age cutoff for participation at age 45, somewhere around 50% of competitive cyclists are excluded from participation.

An aside, If the ethics review board is concerned about harm to individuals over age 45, it might help to provide this sort of information. e.g. over half of all competitive amateur cyclists in the USA are older than age 45. These enthusiasts are engaged in bicycle racing, which entails far more risk than a 9 week HIIT training program conducted indoors on a trainer.
Using USAC license holders as a proxy for potential numbers of participants is not perfect. But the general participation rates in competitive cycling illustrates the recruitment issue faced by the study team. TrainerRoad would know the demographics of their users, and that might have different numbers.

Link to USAC Data:

That is quite interesting. Thanks for posting that. We had 12.5% female participants, so actually in line with those numbers. Although, I still do think that ~50/50% is the goal of both sport participation and sport science.

Also a really great point. We justify our high intensity exercise protocols as being ‘familiar to competitive cyclists and part of regular testing and training plans’. So if we can use the same argument for athletes over ~45 yrs, that may be compelling to ethics. Although, I believe there are some hard limits on age based on insurance coverage cut-offs. So that is even out of Ethics’ hands

Not sure how well I can articulate this but I’m going to try. You were looking in the places (teams/coaches) where women are because they want the structure/training that they desire, so trying to pull them away from that was already going to be a challenge. Furthermore, a lot of women carry additional burdens - greater shares of household/child-rearing/elder-care for example - so if they are training consistently, it’s got to be effective for them. Adjusting their routines for 6-8 weeks might not be possible, so the rigidity of a study becomes a limiter. Not saying this doesn’t apply to men too but I believe women will be disproportionately affected.

By being restricted to women <40 you’re also looking at age groups where women might be taking a break from sport due to career/family pressures. Sports Marketing Surveys put out a report called “Women’s Sporting Journeys” which is available as a free download and which might give you some insights that can help you design your recruitment plans.

In practical terms, if you do run another recruitment cycle, reach out to Saddle Sisters, a 300+ strong group of women cyclists based in Toronto. Using networks like that will hopefully be more productive for you.

Very well articulated, thanks. That makes a lot of sense for why females might be less willing to ‘risk’ their training for 8 weeks.

Good point too that female athletes tend to skew older, so participant representation might need to be older. Never considered that when it comes to ecological validity for our research. I will now!

Question for anyone who pops in here: What is the current ramp test method used for estimating FTP? Is it a fixed % of Wpeak?

I believe it is 75% of peak 1 minute power. https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/360006903031-Ramp-Test-FAQs

I should have checked there first. Thank you!