As I see it, going electronic will allow frame manufacturers to change their designs, because they can assume that any high-end bike they will make will sport an electronic groupset. I reckon many of them will be disappointed that Shimano hasn’t gone fully wireless, because then you literally would just have to account for the hydraulic brake hoses.
And I really don’t get it: they have the tech and according to some of the testing gurus out there on the internet, the left side is accurate.
It’ll be interesting to see how the product lines of the smaller players evolve - I’m thinking of manufacturers like Chapter 2 who are already not playing to the mass market…
Just another example of where SRAM has been smarter about their product mix compared to Shimano. With Sram force, you can add the excellent quarq power meter spider for under $500 and a single sided option for Rival for ~$250. When you buy a Force or Rival crank, they put a little sticker on it reminding you that it’s designed to have the power meter added. Just smart product management in my opinion.
I’m not a fan of the Red powermeter crank that combines the power meter with the chainrings, but I guess that’s fine for the folks who buy red and $ is no object. It is a fancy bit of kit, so certainly checks the bling factor box.
I’m not a shimano hater, I think they do the things they do very well. I just don’t think they are doing the things the market wants in a timely manner. Maybe I’m just not their target customer.
Yup, can confirm that. Taken a few minutes ago after a very hard workout:
Sorry for not cleaning up the sweaty towels.
Same here.
I cannot remember when Shimano reacted to a trend before SRAM did. Their product segmentation on the drop bar side seems hostile to customers. IMHO they’d serve their customers better if they had officially supported e. g. smaller chain ring configurations on their regular groupsets and offered GRX shift levers as an option. Ditto for official 1x support. Shimano, it is a thing, some people prefer it and at least in certain market segments, it is quite popular.
No need to look very hard. I own a 3T Strada, which came out as 1x only. When 3T reluctantly brought a 2x version to market, it was compatible only with electronic shifters. Vielo makes the stunning R+1 and the V+1, which are 1x only. At least the R+1 is also only compatible with (true) wireless shifting, so it is SRAM only.
Edit: It seems Vielo’s bikes are compatible with Shimano and Campag 1x groupsets now. I distinctly remember, though, that at launch they were SRAM-only, though.
On gravel bikes especially, 1x makes a lot of sense as you run into clearance issues with the front derailleur. Ironically, it is the bulge that contains the electronic bits that can cause some issues.
Looking 5-10 years ahead, I think 1x will become much more popular, too. Rotor and Campag already offer 13-speed 1x drive trains. Looking at gear ratios, I think 13 speeds is when you tip from “almost no compromise” to “no compromise for most people”. Once you add a 14th cog, I think the FD is dead. If I were on 2x11 Di2, my itch to get a 12-speed groupset would be almost non-existant. Knowing Shimano, it’ll be very late to the party.
But then one thought… if we just look at performance and weight of 105 Di2 (which is a directly derived from the new DA, except front derailleur), does it beat Rival?
Even though they are technically on the same level. With 105 Di2 you pretty much get 90% of Dura Ace performance at cheaper price, and 500g penalty.
How is Rival stacking up to that?
My bike has Force, not Rival eTap AXS. But to my understanding, the shifting mechanism is identical between Rival, Force and Red. I have only ridden 11-speed Ultegra Di2, so let me assume for a second that 12-speed Di2 is as good or perhaps a bit better.
In terms of rear shifting performance, all of them are great. You could argue about shift feel or point out that Shimano’s wired Di2 is a few milliseconds faster, but honestly, in practice, it doesn’t matter. They are all way faster than Shimano mechanical (simply the lever throw adds a whole bunch of time on Shimano’s mechanical groupsets).
I am sure you have noticed that I wrote rear shifting. That is because my current road bike is 1x. This is the first area where Shimano is behind. AXS eTap is super flexible, you can essentially mix and match all components. There are just a few exception, e. g. that you cannot use the 10-44 cassettes and up with a double in the front. You can have 1x, 2x and you have tons of chainring sizes. I can buy anything from a 38-tooth to a 54-tooth chainring (of course, your frame must fit them). I am sure third parties make bigger ones. SRAM’s rear derailleurs all have clutches, which is great, especially on 1x. Although you will benefit from that on a 2x, too.
Shimano has nothing to add here. Yes, you can get GRX, but you have far fewer first-party chainring options and their selection of gearing combos is not great. If you want 1x, you are forced to use GRX even though perhaps you want to run it on a road bike. If you live in the Netherlands, you really don’t need 2x.
Ditto with power meters. SRAM has Quarq power meters. Their spider-based power meters are the benchmark, they just work. The Rival left-sided power meter is also very good (with all the caveats that come with doubling the power numbers measured on your left leg), and most importantly, it is cheap. If memory serves, it costs $250, which is less than what 4iiii charges.
You could say “well, this is 105”. I’d reply, this is $1900 105. Not too long ago, I could almost pick up a Red mechanical groupset for that price, I think.
I would correct you on that, in terms of rear shifting you get 100 % of the performance. Whether front shifting is massively improved because of the FD, I don’t know. The only downside as I see it is weight.
Very well, easily competitive. Right now it is cheaper, more versatile and comes with a native power meter option. If you want to save some weight, you should get a Red crank, which saves about 200 g. Then you can also put a better spider-based power meter on it. (I would have gone with a Red crank, but that would have meant waiting another 2+ months for my bike — and I wasn’t going to sit out the 2021 summer riding season, because my Force crank is a few grams heavier.)
If you want to know more about Rival specifically, I think @WindWarrior has a road bike with a Rival build + Red crank. It’s a very sweet bike.
I think the disruption caused by Covid is putting Shimano in an odd place currently. For a while now Dura and Ultrega have been functionality identical (and pretty close weight wise if you wanted to run a dura cassette/chain on Ultegra), so the main reason to upgrade to a higher end groupset was the 18 month wait for the latest tech to trickle down. Now we have a scenario where we’ve 3 functionally identical groupersets all landing at broadly the same time.
Sure you pay a chunkier weight penalty for 105 over ultegra but I can’t see anything over than an erosion of higher end groupset sales, which is possibly a driver for the price uplifts on 105?
Yeah, totally agree!
Like you say, both SRAM and Shimano now have all they group sets do the exactly same thing.
And if were being honest here, the 500-600g between top the line and the Rival/105 Di2 version doesn’t warrant 300% higher price, for anyone but the true professionals.
But hey, that makes it easier for me at least. 105 Di2 is pretty much all one needs, can then focus on a good frame and wheels instead! Win win! (Except for the wallet of course…)
I feel like they need to have a bigger difference between the 3 levels, weight and shifter buttons isn’t enough. But looking for a manufacture perspective it makes sense, especially in COVID times.
Guess that they know that 105 Di2 is a bit too good for “being 105”, and hence now have a price tag matching what you actually get…
Yeah but that was basically the same for the Mechanical 11 speed versions… The differences in functionality were really small… the problem for me is now that you basically have no entry level option with an upgrade path to higher end parts. if you go Mechanical you are stuck on 105 and there is no lower level groupset with 11 speed. I’m interested to see how the Pricing on bikes will look like, if it is way above rival I don’t see it as a good value proposition since you don’t even get the power meter option… But we just have to live with the fact that for the big brands the 3000$ entry level Carbon bike will probably be Tiagra from now on.
My Rival bike shifts smoother than my Force bike. But, I think it’s more a matter of a more favorable chainline on the Rival bike. But it does support my belief that Force is a bit pointless in that product lineup.
What I am worried will happen, and I think I see this already with SRAM, is that bikes will be sold with 105 Di2 at what was formerly the Ultegra Di2 price point, and the difference will be pocketed by the manufacturer. I see a lot of Rival AXS bikes right now in the $5-6k price bracket where you used to get Force, and the next step up in the model lineup is Red.
The thing that worries me about this trend is how it’s going to lead to perfectly good bikes becoming obsolete as the support for the previous version of the electronics dries up. Changing cable pull ratios is a pain, but means that people like Ratio technologies can come along and rescue things - that’s going to be a whole lot harder to do when your DI2 electronics fails (or gets damaged in a crash). In 20 years time, are we going to be seeing any bikes with this kit on being ridden?
It sure looks like Shimano has no intention of supporting 11s Di2 going forward. The used parts market may be the only recourse.
I just don’t get the pricing. I prefer shimano but if I was in the market for a new bike and oem pricing between electronic rival and electronic 105 are drastically different with 105 being higher there is no doubt in my mind I’d go rival.
I’ve been thinking about going electronic on my gravel bike and am still waiting to see how supply chain issues, inflation, etc play out as I’m in no rush. So I was going to see how things are early next year anyway. But with this 105 di2 pricing my decisions made. I’ll be going with sram rival etap for sure.
Yeah I think that’s the one thing that’s really different this time. Previously there’s been a fairly steady and predictable trickle down of new tech through the groupsets so that you nearly always had some kind of replacement path. E.g. I have a nearly 20 year old bike that started out on 9 speed Ultegra, got upgraded/downgraded to mostly 10 speed 105 about 10 years ago, and I can still replace parts with Tiagra if needed. Switching 105 to 12 speed and Di2 at the same time and within a year of Ultegra and DA going 12 speed means that 2021 model Di2 11 speed bikes are already looking kind of obsolete in terms of being able to replace parts. For 11 speed mechanical support I would hope that Tiagra goes 11 speed sooner rather than later.
Am sure there will be a reasonable supply of 11 speed Di2 from existing stock for a year or 2 but beyond that who knows? I guess at least there shouldn’t be many (any?!) people interested in buying or building a new bike with 11 speed Di2 given this announcement so that might stretch out how long it takes for parts supply to dry up.
That would make sense. I had tiagra for awhile on my road bike. The only reason I upgraded to 105 was it was the older tiagra with the shifter cable coming out the side so I wanted a little bit cleaner cable setup.
Maybe only if the electronic parts keep working or it’s possible to buy a new groupset (that still fits the frameset).
SRAM was horrible with the transition from 11 to 12 speed etap. Supplies of 11 speed derailleurs just dried up and if yours broke, you were out of luck. Then the 12 speed derailleurs came out and couldn’t be programed to 11 speed despite being functionally the same. Finally, Sram came around with a software update allowing the user to program a new derailleur. I don’t think they have done that yet with the front derailleur.
Will bike companies support parts for 20 years? I wouldn’t bet on it.
This may just be me - but last year I transitioned from Dura-Ace 11spd Di2 to Sram Red AXS 12-spd and then back to Sram Force 1x Mechanical (11spd).
I for the life of me cannot in all honesty say that I feel the electronic is so “superior” to the mechanical - the only thing I felt that I was left was more money in my pocket, a very nice functioning group set that is lighter and far cheaper to replace parts on if something goes wrong and incredibly simple to work on.
Would I ride Di2 - sure, do I find it so superior to mechanical that I need it? No.
For anyone wondering why I transitioned to the mechanical - I saw an opportunity to sell my red at a premium when no one had parts. When I discovered that on a 100% race bike that the mechanical force was actually in my book significantly lighter and cheaper for when things break (Gravel bike) it was a no brainer to me.
I am fortunate enough to be able to afford anything I want, but why on earth would I spend that kind of money on electronic at this point, I do all my own mechanical work however.
I’ve only put a few hundred miles on my new bike with Rival AXS, but I agree that the shifting feels “snappier” than Force AXS. It’s probably just new bike placebo, but the clutch design on the RD is also different and definitely has a different action when shifting to smaller cogs. Again, this is all splitting hairs and I’ve never had a bad experience with any electronic groupset from Shimano or SRAM.
I do all my own mechanical work as well and I don’t miss replacing cables and housings or having to adjust shifting. With internal routing (especially through proprietary bars/stems), re-cabling is not my favorite maintenance task. After replacing cables, you have to ride a bit and re-adjust for any cable stretch at some point. I haven’t adjusted the Ultegra di2 on my road bike since I bought the groupset and it’s got over 35k miles on it. The bike has been torn down many times over the years (including new cranks and cassette), but the shifting just stays perfect even after swapping parts.
There is a part of me that likes the pureness of a mechanical group, but that’s more about nostalgia and “bike art” and not relevant to the bikes I use as tools where I only care about performance and low maintenance. I’d never put electronic on a classic lugged steel frame, that would be vintage campy super record.
