Without volume there is no consistency. Well you can consistently do zero volume I suppose
Huh???
I’m sorry but I don’t see how that’s true at all. 3x 1hr sessions per week, every week is consistency but not volume. How are you imaging you can’t have consistency without volume? Genuine question. Help me understand.
This you? Your own example says 1 hour per week, every week is consistency. So again, consistency without volume.
Would you two stop? Take the semantics debate to DM.
I suspect that what Jonathon means by consistency is don’t be that fairweather cyclist that trains in spurts, takes all Christmas off, etc, etc.
I’ve seen those guys in my club. They show up in the spring completely out of shape. They peak by August and then disappear again by September. They repeat the same cycle over and over and never gain year over year fitness.
Ok, back to tempo training. I guess it never left cycling. We all know what it is. This hot take from this coach is much ado about nothing? Most “amateurs” don’t even do structured training. They just ride with their mates, do club rides, and events.
I had a coach for years until recently and tempo training was always in my plans.
Along with the referenced YT video Road Cycling academy has put out some content recently about the benefits of tempo training.
In general, I think it’s pushback against this idea that zone 3 is wasted time.
There’s just a lot of misinformation out there about structured training and people are always wanting some magical formula that works for all people on all situations. And obviously that’s not realistic.
No zone is inherently good or bad. People try to oversimplify everything with a big clickbait title. The real world is too nuanced for clickbait though. Like everything else, it depends. Depends on the hours you have to train, what you can recover from, what you’re training for, etc..
Ok, back to tempo training. I guess it never left cycling. We all know what it is. This hot take from this coach is much ado about nothing? Most “amateurs” don’t even do structured training.
I started dabbling in structured training in 2021 and only started seriously in 2024. At the time, popular fitness media was really emphasising the importance of zone 2 and 80/20 polarisation. You’d see pages like this Zone 2 vs Tempo Training: What's the Difference for Cyclists? | Roadman Cycling (coincidentally from the host of this podcast) that read as a long list of reasons not to do tempo training as a beginner.
I think if you’ve got a long history of training, or were fortunate enough to start with a good frame of reference, then tempo training never left. But there was definitely a period of time where newcomers to training were being encouraged to avoid tempo and spend as much time in zone 2 as possible.
From the page I linked above:
If more than 30% of your total time is in Zone 3 or tempo, and less than 50% is truly in Zone 2 or below, your distribution needs recalibrating.
Imagine that for someone cycling 3-5h a week!
I try to avoid influencers that talk to the general crowd.
The whole situation was also further confused by San Milan who branded his lactate measured tempo as his “zone 2”.
I do find the influencers entertaining. They went from “zone 2” (who knows what definition), to Norwegian 4x4s (vo2max), to double threshold (lactate controlled tempo / sweet spot), to … I have no idea what they have latched on to now.
For the sake of argument, San Milan’s zone 2 is and has been 2 mmol, which is the border between endurance and tempo.
Norwegian double threshold is at their measured mlss, which for some individuals who are over estimating ftp would be in sweet spot. For example, If you used kollie’s protocol to estimate ftp, you would use that number for those workouts, not 88-94% of it.
I personally am using an arbitrary 85% of ftp and am working on extending that out. I currently just completed a block at 2x30, and will jump to 3x25 next block. This is following the philosophy of Sebastian weber, but sounds very much like Steve Neal too.
Yeah, I think ISM’s Z2 was sort of specific that it’s at the top of Z2/bottom of Z3, which is where most people’s fatmax is.
The confusing thing, I think, is that the people he was training at UAE probably had a fatmax that was at a higher percentage of FTP (above 75%) than many of us (around 75%), so while they might have been riding at higher percentages of FTP, it was likely still around the same physiological state as us maxing out Z2. 
Lately, I’ve been helping my kid train for cross country. Year after year his coaches have burned him out. I think it’s the vo2max, or vo2 hill repeats, or just trying to keep up with guys who run a 4.5 minute mile.
In June after track season I designed him a tempo/sweet spot speed endurance plan. His target time was breaking 6 minutes for the mile. He was running sets of 400s at slightly under the 6 minute pace. He did it for 3 weeks with a taper and busted his mile PR by 40 seconds (5:20).
He’s training again for next season and we are doing the same workouts. The races are 3 mile or 5k. I think he’ll easily break 18 minutes for 3 miles if he stays on the program. We are just extending time in zone now. Eventually, we’ll shorten the rest periods.
I’m a big believer in sub threshold interval gains. Leave the vo2max stuff as the occasional icing on the cake.
Running is fun in that you can really plot out a progression to a 5k. non eliete workouts follow a pretty pragmatic approach, then fill a few more miles per week with easy leg turnover.
- 400x8 @ goal pace w/ 2 min off
- work that until you can do it with 1 min off and complete final rep
- then 800x4 @ goal pace w/ 2 min off
- continue the build in a similar fashion of reducing rest or increasing reps
- work up to 1k reps until you’re 5x1k is 60 second rest. You’ve likely been ready at the point you can do this - just need to hang on for the final 3-4 min of your race.
It would be fun to assign a similar methodology to cycling, except for the fact we’re all often trying to train multiple energy systems at once considering most riding isn’t strictly at a predicated power output (aside from a pan flat itt?)
Congrats to your son - 5:20 mile is aweeome.
My plan is similar to that and the idea was to keep the pace conservative and slowly shorten the rest periods and lengthen the intervals. It’s interesting that my kid really responds so well to this kind of training but they never did much of this during the last 4 years of cross country. He was just always getting his legs pounded into oblivion until he ran out of gas mid season - like clockwork. I’m fascinated by the famous running coach Igloi and how he pieced together all the workouts with short intervals. The Norwegian way of lactate controlled workouts (staying sub threshold) also fascinates me - Marius Bakken.
(This is the first time my kid has ever taken training advice from me. 
He’ll probably just do whatever the high school coaches tell him to do in September but hopefully he’ll have the best base he’s ever had. Also trying to teach him not to try and keep up with the super fast runners and thus turning every workout into threshold and above.)
The parent / coach dynamic is always an interesting one to witness. As long as you’re both having fun it sounds like you’re curiosity for training and access to a kid who wants to go fast are a pretty great combo for the summer
Aren’t these vo2max reps? 400’s close to 6 minute best?
They are only 1:30 laps. After a few sessions he was barely breathing hard. The 6 minute target was an intentionally easy target.
I don’t really want to be his personal coach. It’s just nice that he’s finally acknowledged that I do carry some knowledge from years of bicycle racing and training. It also really helped that he followed my plan and busted his mile PR by a wide margin.
I have other ideas for him but he’s just not that committed that much to cross country. He’s home all summer. I’d have him doing double days even if the 2nd run is just an easy shakeout run. I would have had him lift weighs all summer but he doesn’t want to.
Last summer I handed him this summer XC training program called “the summer of Malmo”. Some top coach sketched it out for kids to get super fit during the summer. It’s all sub threshold based with 2x per week intervals and as many double days as possible - like sweet spot base with volume. He totally ignored me on that one.
Any references?
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Summer of Malmo is a good one. Though he gets mad if anyone calls it a program. It’s all vibes. 
But if there was a formula that works the majority during summer xc this would be it. 