Maybe I missed something in the ISM/Attia interview, but did they discuss if or how this workout intensity scales with volume?
80%mHR puts me in the middle of tempo zone (z3). For lowish volume I can see that being okay. But for sure I’m not doing my weekly 4-5hr long ride at that pace without having recovery issues and doubt I could handle that as the default pace for my aerobic endurance rides in a 14-15hr week.
It scales when you don’t base it on % MaxHR or %FTP. When Pog is riding at 276W he is not at 80% max or at .75 IF. Those concepts don’t directly map from high volume pros or amateurs to lower volume athletes.
At >15hrs / week, you would base it on several metabolic measures rather than rough guidelines.
% (lactate) threshold HR is a thing in the coaching world.
True but same issue. If I measure HR and power during a lab test I’m not going to then make those percentages of something else (be it max or threshold). I’m just going to use the number itself. That’s the purpose of measuring it. That scales in both directions. Measuring always works. It just isn’t always convenient or possible.
I measure it too, but to average HR seen on a couple dozen centuries (all day) and long TT (lthr) efforts. Practically speaking it works well. Then measure progress by power at HR.
Two of my current clients are new to structured training and the concept of zones. It’s hard to talk RPE with them outside of the context of the zones… almost like you need to zones to train with structure so you can learn how it feels so you don’t really need the zones anymore. Paradoxical.
May not be the greatest thing to cite for this thread because as an IM athlete, riding at the cusp of Coggan Z2/3 is IM bike intensity for high level age groupers. It’s as race specific as it gets. So it may be that the coach is on the cutting edge of ISM training methods, or it (most likely) is that the coach is just doing what triathlon coaches do when training IM athletes on the bike.
That’s her slow ride FWIW. And I’m not being pushed to go slower by my coach. Just getting faster.
I imagine if she is sustaining that for 5 hours for her race the 3 hour version is probably not terribly taxing.
Meanwhile, I do that and need a day…
IiRC, it is not based on max hr. Attia and ISM use lactate. The 80% of max hr is a generalization
Yep, I was taking that and making a generalization.
And windwarrior is right, if you’re going to rely on a percentage it might be better in many cases to use %LTHR rather than max. That’s a thing too.
I thought @Craig_G was commenting / asking how using these percentages of FTP or HR scale UP. And I’m saying they don’t in this case. ISM would just measure lactate and gas exchange.
He not going “hmmmm, this guys FTP is such and such and we know that .75 IF is around LT1”. That’s conflating a bunch of different measurement protocols, two different coaching approaches, and estimates and general guidelines with specifically measuring.
It’s an impedance mismatch that fuels confusion. Attia made a decent attempt IMO to focus on “moderately trained” athletes (essentially the audience of that pod), but translating this stuff can be thorny, especially with “FTP arithmetic”,
Where is Attia’s Q&A that suggest 80% of HRmax?
Personally, that would be me in sweet spot, almost at threshold.
One has to remember that Attia is a bit of a crazy, A-type, kind of biohacker guy. He’s also been working out 5-6 days per week for years - lifting, BFR, 4-5 hours of his “zone 2”, plus VO2max workouts. It wouldn’t surprise me for him to do some diabolical workouts that might not be good for anyone else.
His goal is also not to be fast on a bike but to live the longest, healthiest life. He’s trying to prevent cancer and metabolic disease with all this exercise.
I don’t know. But have found the Z2 workouts where I put the intensity to 75% a little lacking. Mainly because I never want to spend more than 2 hours on the trainer. So after 2 hours, my heart rate would barely tick in to the lower Z2 range.
So yesterday I kept increasing the intensity every 15 minutes until my HR stabilized a little under 80% of HR max, which corresponded to about 85% of FTP. Was this better? I have no idea. But it did more “work”, and my legs still feels great this morning
It’s on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txLrNhv8GW0
Completely agree. This wasn’t a podcast about cycling training. The point was people should exercise more, especially in the endurance zones and had a physiologist as a guest to support his position. The physiologist happens to work with cyclists. It is not a podcast about how to train cyclists.
@zo541 @AJS914 I agree with you, his podcasts aren’t about how to train cyclists, but ISM has appeared on podcasts that are about training cyclists. And although I’m not really a huge Attia fan (I’ve listened to maybe 3-4 of his pods, total) he cleared up some questions I had from ISM other podcast appearances (I’ve always struggled with talk test cues and RPE, for example).
@AJS914 I do struggle with the 2mmol/L and 80% maxHR thing. 80% maxHR for LT1 is very high. That would make sense I suppose since he evidently does this sort of training quite a bit. What surprises me is that it corresponds with a 2mmol/L value at LT1. All that training and your LT1 lactate at first inflection is still that high? 
Unlucky? Not sure. Pretty individual.
if the 80% of max HR is high or low, might depend on the person?
For my own n=1 experience:
LTHR from max. 20min effort is 165bpm
Max HR is 180bpm
If I go by LTHR and the setup on intervals.icu my Z2 max Hr is 146bpm, but if I go with max Hr it’s 144bpm. Either way, have no clue what my lactate levels would be, but definitely matches with easily being able to speak in full sentences. Whereas the Z2 derived strictly from FTP seems more like “active rexocery”
80+% MaxHR is actually possible.
A friend of mine, pro Mtb cyclist, got tested recently in a lab and his aerobic threshold is at 83% max hr corresponding to slightly more than 75% of his ftp.
Any idea about lactate?
I would like to keep this thread going. . I purchased a lactate meter three weeks ago.
My heart rate at ISM zone 2 (1.3-1.9mmol) is 65%MHR. Average heart rate of 134BPM during a 2x 45 minute interval.
The max heart rate was during a ramp test a year ago.
My heart rate at LT2 Norwegian style / Marius bakken (2.3-3.0mmol) is 71%MHR.