Why have more demanding TR workouts lower workout levels?


I am puzzled why a more demanding workout like James is rated 5.1 while a less demanding workout like Andrews is rated 5.4. I was looking for workout alternates and was presented with the selection shown in the screenshot. I would assume that both Brasstown and Andrews are easier than James but both have a higher rating. Why is that?


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There’s not much in it but they’ve maybe took account of it being easier to maintain a constant 74% in James as oppose to punching up from 65-75% in Andrews, even though James at the end of the day uses slightly more joules/ watts. Lol, the boredom factor of James though would certainly make it harder for me though :joy:


Looks like an error to me


I’ve said it before, but I find progression levels for endurance incredibly pointless. Do a ride, keep it largely 60-65%, increase duration, no big deal. Nitpicking over these levels is just expending needless mental energy


:100:%. If you’re even thinking about the mild differences in PL of 1:30 z2 workouts you have completely missed the point and your focus is way off.

Please explain the point of PLs if it is not to explain the differences in workouts.

not everything needs to be parsed

Workout levels are automatically assigned by the machine learning algorithm. We don’t know why it does what it does. Perhaps it factors in things like historical completion rates. Maybe Andrews has some in-ride instructions that, if followed, make the workout a bit more difficult to complete than it would appear at first glance.

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Thanks a lot for all your opinions on this matter! :slight_smile:

While I actually agree with all your (contrary) views that it’s actually (not) a matter, I would hope for the TR team (Hi @SarahLaverty!) to chip in their view as well.

Simply because if there is a difference made, there must be an explanation, and – most importantly – there may be marginal gains to be made. (LOL)

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there is no difference

It’s a bug. There are enough examples that in different threads that have been tweaked here a bit and there a bit… IIRC Jonathan said in another thread that workouts with non-normal warmup/cooldown break the PL scoring.

So meanwhile I’ve lost confidence in the TR ML whatever model and don’t expect WLv2 any time soon :frowning:.

(Reminds me of the backend UI framework overhaul some years ago that needed to be reworked again and again and took much of development capacity).

Hi @Rizzi

That gives me some comfort for my hunch – to do James next despite the lower workout level assigned to it. I completed both Brasstown and Andrews “with honours” last week. Thus, James is the “natural” progression now (being five weeks in my six weeks long plan).

I guess, I’ll have to live with TR possibly bumping down my endurance progression level despite me accomplishing greater work with James than with Brasstown and Andrews. :wink:


I don’t agree with anyone saying PL’s aren’t meant to compare one workout to another…that’s exactly what they are for. But, it’s a known issue and the difference is minor. You could go create the exact same workout and import it to TR and it might have yet another different PL assigned.

I would just follow the plan. I’d be very surprised if the PL drops, but if it does, it will go right back up the next ride, and in the end, it’s just the Endurance PL.

That’s exactly my point. If it’s a known issue then I am good to go with my own judgement: James should be more demanding than Brasstown or Andrews to me. Perhaps only slightly so but from experience I can tell that the intermittent intervals with a lower target wattage feel easier to me. And with James I will still stay in the aspired power and HR range for endurance.

Again, I thank all of you who were so kind to reply to my question. I consider this topic “closed” for myself – and sufficient angles on this topic exchanged (would love TR to chip in though;). This forum is great!

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For the record, I was agreeing with you :raised_hands:

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Workout Levels are calculated using a formula derived from machine learning, incorporating subjective factors like repetition, interval length, and recovery time.

Sometimes, we run into edge cases that require a TR admin to refresh the Workout Level to fix it. This will no longer happen once Workout Levels V2 is released.

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@ZackeryWeimer, thanks for your response – much appreciated! :+1:

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