I have particularly bad memories of threshold over unders
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Threshold is harder inside than outside for me, the motivation is hard even with a race video and music. Vo2max are hard but usually shorter so I find it easier only in a mental motivation way. The long threshold Intervals inside are some of the ones I struggle with, but outside I knock them out. Sure theyâre hard but being outside makes it more enjoyable.
Please donât turn this into another ftp discussion
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Always found threshold harder both mentally and physically. Even the longer VO2 intervals are short enough that I can just tough my way through them, longer threshold intervals just require a lot of suffering.
Think part of it is also that there are plenty of hills around me up to 6 minutes, so pretty easy to do VO2 intervals where I can lay the work down consistently. Threshold is harder to do outside as the roads that are pan flat tend to be interrupted by lights and junctions, whereas the roads that are uninterrupted tend to be rolling enough that itâs really hard to maintain steady power. Other option is to do them indoors which is fine for the achievable workouts but the extra suffering of being indoors means the Productive or Stretch workouts become a real challenge to complete.
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I am so tired of this mantra on the forum.
Yes, it can still be thresh hold. I struggle with long intervals on the trainer. Outside I can do them no problem. Furthermore, I can do longer intervals when I donât have a set time for the interval. E.g., if you tell me I have to do a 20 minute threshold interval, I often fail. If I plan to do threshold intervals with no set time, I often do 20-30 minute efforts with no problem.
I also find over-unders easier than steady threshold intervals. Yes, I am more likely to finish a workout with 95% - 105% over-unders than I am having the same length strictly at 95%. The relative difference between the powers makes the 95% feel easy for me. When I stay at 95% the entire time, my mind doesnât trick itself into thinking 95% is easy.
All of this is 100% mental for me. I know that, doesnât change reality.
Fact of the matter is, we all have different physiology and mental strengths/weaknesses.
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VO2 Max is harder for me, especially inside, however Iâm learning that in order to really nail them, I need to do them inside. U/O is the typical threshold work out for me, and I do them outside as I have a long enough climb and find that I can do it pretty effectively there, and itâs a lot more race specific that way (gravel road). I have more experience riding near FTP (decade or more) than I do focused VO2 Max work so thatâs probably the âwhyâ for me.
For me, I get a little freaked out by the âfish out of waterâ sensation that a proper VO2 Max interval lends to, conversely threshold work is a lot more muscular endurance for me, and itâs a sensation that doesnât âscareâ me nearly as much.
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Threshold is harder for me. Itâs hard enough that it gets hard to pay attention to tv (except for biathlon, anyhow) but long enough that just having music gets old.
Also, if my FTP isnât as accurate than threshold can be way harder. VO2 doesnât really have that issue, just ride hard and see what happens.
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I find Threshold workouts much harder, For some reason, I find VO2 Max Easy.
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Iâm not sure what you mean by âshortâ VO2max sessions. You mean like 20/40 second intervals? To me those are hardly VO2max though you might get to VO2max by the very end.
If a 4 minute threshold interval is hard then the threshold wattage is way over stated.
I mean youâre not wrong. And as stated above itâs a general unscientific definition. To find your real numbers youâd need a lab test.
But my comment was not a slight. Indeed threshold work is harder for some. I have seen this as a coach. Generally the athlete geared toward longer distance is much better at it than say a mid distance runner.
That said I have seen people calculate threshold⌠which is not their threshold and try to hold that pace. Itâs too hard for them. For the sake of simplicity we say âthe max effort you can hold for 60 min.â But also above admittedly many canât actually hold that pace for an hour. If thatâs the case than arenât they indeed going too hard?
As a coach I think the important thing is to train from the bottom up. What I mean is 95% is better than 105%. Itâs important to âgo to the wellâ now and then but more often you should finish a workout like you can do more. Again, just my opinion and experience but when you go too hard too often itâs a hole that only an off-season usually remedies.
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Over the years Iâve had pretty consistent FTP estimates from all of ramp test, AI FTP, 8 minute test, 20 minute test. And backed up by what Iâm capable of on the few occasions when terrain, motivation and fuelling have enabled me to do ~hour long steady threshold efforts. Which pretty much only includes Zwift races and mountain climbs.
So I have a high degree of confidence that my FTP is accurate. And yet holding that number for intervals of any more than about 10 minutes on my normal riding terrain and with my everyday levels of motivation is pretty unpleasant and not something I look forward to. That state of affairs doesnât really seem to improve with practice. When I do force myself to do those sessions they donât seem all that productive - usually wipe me out much more than a sweetspot or VO2 max session would. And my type of racing doesnât particularly require me to do long threshold efforts anyway. So I tend to avoid doing them. Iâll do shorter threshold intervals, or over unders, or sweetspot, or longer VO2. Anything but sitting at FTP for extended durations!
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Iâm talking about workouts like Oschenhorn⌠Anything with 3 mins plus above threshold is pretty hard.
Ochsenhorn is 4 Ă 4.5 mins at 106% with nearly 10 minutes of recovery, right?
What % of your max heart rate are you getting up to? What cadence are you shooting for compared to your âusualâ cadence? If theyâre hard - in what way: legs, lungs or mind?
Undeniably, the mental aspect is real, and challenging. Generally I find that itâs my legs that complain before my lungs⌠Though on Peter, definitely my lungs, but that ultimately leads to legs running out of fuel, where as the longer work intervals are punctuated by burn. Lots of burn.
I think I just donât process lactate well.
Does running help with processing lactate?
My legs always complained before my lungs. So I listened to Coach Chad and other coaches and physiologists.
Slow twitch muscle fibers use lactate as fuel. So you need to train your slow twitch muscle fibers.
Low intensity will focus training on slow twitch muscle fibers. Its called endurance or zone2 (zone1/zone2) training.
The intensity needs to be low, otherwise your legs will start recruiting fast twitch fibers. So keep it steady and low intensity as much as possible.
Thatâs why sweet spot training is not a replacement for endurance training. It complements endurance training, but its not a replacement.
Two years ago I started doing 4-6 hours/week of endurance training and it made a huge difference. Initial gains in 3 months, and then over time the gains keep growing and growing.
IIRC, running offers little transfer to cycling. But cycling offers some transfer to running. Or vice versa. Iâm not a runner.
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VO2 is harder for me, and it isnât even close
Iâm talking about VO2 being above the second ventilatory threshold - that gasping for air feeling is harder than anything at threshold for me
For those saying threshold is harder - can you define the type of VO2 workout you think is easier than sayâŚ4x10 minutes at threshold?
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All-out vo2max work is absolutely harder for me too, where you end up fighting for breath like drowning underwater.
Versus something like Bluebell / Bashful / Baird or any other 1-min TR âintro to vo2â working in erg mode.
Sounds interesting, though Iâm not sure I can manage 4-6 hours a week⌠Perhaps I can swap the group ride for a slower one which will be more in Z2, rather than the higher intensity.
haha All of them are easier. Even Panoche is preferable to 4*10 mins at threshold.
4 *10 mins at threshold fills me with dread.
Spanish needle is one vo2 workout I hate to see on my calendar.
Inside long steady intervals are just hard because itâs hard to stay motivated staring at my garage door, even with music and visuals on my iPad.
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Iâm not really au fait with all the details, so forgive me, but is this the science behind Polarised plans?