Fantastic thanks!
Fractions of a mm makes little difference. I’ve found that typically available spokes tend to be even lengths so in your case 284 would be fine to use.
+1 on Brandt’s book. I’ve used it for years. Another good one is by Roger Musson.
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Just on the Jobst Brandt subject, the man, not the book … check out this if you have time.
He used to do this big ride in the spring that was over Tioga Pass area. I’ve read bits and pieces about the golden years of Bay Area cycling, with Brandt and Ritchey etc.
Ended up buying another copy of the 2nd edition of the wheel book last night.
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The only thing I’d add is if you reuse spokes, it’s a good idea to reuse the spokes in the same orientation. More important: if you reuse hubs, it’s important to keep spoke routing the same (you’ll actually see the marks in the flange from the previous install)
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Adding to the tool list, while it can be done without, a spoke tension meter will help ensure that your wheels will either stay true longer or prevent you from breaking overtensioned spokes.
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I grabbed the Park tension meter, but didnt use it on the last two wheels I built. I will next time.
There are copies of the Park one (or maybe the park is a relabelled one of these?), which would be worth a look. Also there are ones that use a dial indicator.
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Park also updated their spoke keys a couple years ago, and now they support 4 sides of the nipple. I grabbed these too.
Wheel building, especially if making something out of used or out of date parts (i.e. take some 26" mtb disc wheels, find a deep section 700c rim and end cap adatpers, and convert the hubs and spokes across to be the latest 700c 142x12 deep section carbon wheels.
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I’ve never used a tensiometer, I just “pluck” ‘em to ensure all the spokes on a side ring with the same “tone.”
As far as damaging the spokes by over tightening, it sounds like you’re more likely to damage the rim (or strip the nipple, ime):
Don’t worry about spokes being near their limit. Unless there are fewer than 20 spokes in the wheel, rim collapse will most likely limit spoke tension before spokes are threatened.
Meanwhile, tensiometers are best used to sample overall tension by reading a couple of spokes of each side of the wheel. Final adjustment should be done by ear so that spokes of the same side (rear wheels) are all the same as well as possible. This is not done by a tensiometer because they don’t have sufficient resolution for task.
Jobst Brandt jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
This is an entertaining and illuminating piece that provides some good perspective on wheel-building:
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From a visual glance at those rims, I’d think it’d be highly unlikely the ERDs are the same - did you see figures claiming they are?
RE using the same spokes, that should be fine as long as the wheel was well built and there’s no sign of damage…although if you’re doing all that work, spokes are cheap enough to replace them all if you want a ‘new’ wheel. This may be required if the lengths are wrong anyway.
Asymmetric Vs Symmetric rims? Is one better than the other? I prefer the idea of Symmetric but if I’m possibly considering new hubs (and spokes) I don’t necessarily need to match my existing rims if there’s a reason not to.
(Symmetric just looks better to my OCD eye in the diagram, I guess you do end up with a more satisfying lack of difference in the length of spokes in an Asymmetric set up?)
Just built my very first set of MTB wheels using asymmetric carbon hoops w/ 30ID using Berd spokes. Pretty happy with the results. The Park wheel stand and tension gauge worked well. Highly recommend the thru-axle mounting adapter kit.
I’m no expert but I did find an asymmetric rim allows for more even spoke tension on both sides and was pretty easy to get the dish set perfectly. Also need a dish gauge tool. I’ll never buy another set of factory made wheels. Only a few easy rides but so far strong and true.
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I’ll be interested to hear how the Berd spokes go with a bit of abuse. They sound fantastic in theory (I haven’t seen what they cost yet) but the first review on their own site is pretty negative.
It’s not about looks or spoke length (although the latter might be a nice coincidence if you can use the same length) but spoke tension. Rear wheels are inherently unstable due to the fact the tension of the non-drive side spokes is limited to the maximum possible before they pull the rim to the left of the frame when in the bike. This is turn is limited by the maximum spoke tension the rim can take, which dictates the tension in the drive side, and thus the force the non-drive side are pulling against. Since the cassette/freehub moves the spoke attachment point on the drive side so far inboard it creates a less than ideal leverage for pulling laterally, so the non-drive side spokes have to be loose in order to achieve a correctly balanced wheel (sometimes to the point of losing tension completely under certain circumstances. Asymmetric rims essentially move the attachment point of the rim left a bit, balancing the tension between left and right spokes better. For an example, I’ve built a wheel with the same hub, spokes and rim and used both the symmetric and assymetric version of the same rim. With the standard rim, the non-drive side tension was ~50% of the tension on the drive side - with the asymmetric it was ~70%, so much better balanced. This is theory creates a more stable and reliable wheel.
The issue I’ve seen with asymmetric rims is the drilling can cause the spoke holes to be very close to where the bead sits, so tubeless setups can be very frustrating if the rim tape sinks into the holes over time. They’re also possibly slightly less aero, and usually more money, but that’s about all I can think of for down sides (other than looking a bit odd!)
Either will work though for sure, but if you’re building a rear with a symmetric rim be sure to get some pretty big tension on those drive side spokes 
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I bought one of these on amazon.
Works really well. Not sure if I would take the conversion chart number in newtons as gospel, but the results are repeatable. So I believe these devices do a good job ensuring that all the spokes on one side has the same tension, whatever that true number might be. Which is ultimately the point.
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Cup and Cone still a viable option for reliable performance?
I’ve stumbled across the FH MT901-B which looks like a great option but Shimano hubs are all cup and Cone instead of cartridge.
Does anybody have a code for Competitive Cyclist? (Though I suspect Shimano not be included in deals)
Confirmed - Shimano is on the no-discount list
For hubs? I say no.
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Good to know. It turns out getting the hubs delivered was going to be too difficult anyway. Useful to note for future though.
Ordered rims for my first try at wheelbuilding -
Light Bicycle WR45 Front - 45mm deep - 25mm IW - 32mm EW
Light Bicycle AR56 Rear - 56mm deep - 23mm IW - 30mm EW
I am hoping this combo works out well - I figured…
- I like the look of staggered wheels front and rear
- ~40-45mm seems to be the minimum depth for aero effect
- 32mm front width means I can run a 28mm GP5000 S TR and still meet rule of 105
- Deeper but narrower rear wheel where aerodynamics doesnt matter as much - sorta my budget version of the Roval Rapide CLX type dimensional stagger
I also got a DT240 EXP rear hub - made sure that it was not one of the recalled ones.
Need to order front hub, spokes, nipples while I’m waiting for rims.
Probably will go DT350 for front hub since it is cheaper and weight penalty isn’t much compared to DT240 front.
Nice work. Like the spec.
I’m further away from starting my plan than I was, but at this stage my build would be the following:
BTLOS M-i30 (30mm internal)
CN424 spokes from eBay
ZTTO M1 hubs with genuine DT Swiss ratchets (and eventually higher end bearings)
Galfer disc rotors
The other (possibly better…?) Option is genuine DT 350 front and rear hubs. Cost and weight are higher, but no need to buy anything else.
I’d order the spokes after receiving and measuring the rim personally, unless you’re 100% sure on the ERD for the rims
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