Coming from rowing the 2k distance has a special hatred to me. Never felt as bad as going absolutely all out on one of those efforts. (For reference a 6:30-7m maximal effort) your whole body would be on fire.
3 Likes
Oh. Wasnāt aware we were talking about the 5 min duration specifically. Gotcha. Pretty logical at that point
1 Like
except the thing with vo2 training is that you shouldnāt be training power but rather achieving a physiological state, which is why coaches like Kolie and the gang at EC, for example, just say go as hard as you can with each effort, the power is less important than achieving that state. Of course, the power can eventually come up, but itās not because you were training the power, itās just the benefit of having done workouts where you get to a vo2 state
1 Like
@kurt.braeckel very interesting about your emphasis on high cadence (e.g.110+ etc). As someone whoās natural cadence on sweet spot/threshold efforts is usually 80-85 rpm I find I just die super fast at cadences of 100+ . I can do 40 mins at FTP fine, 1 X 60-75 mins at 90% FTP without much trouble at preferred cadence (80-85 rpm).
I tend to do 5x4min or 4x5 min (occasionally 6 X 3min) for v02 intervals (usually around 115% ftp but depends how feel, never use erg mode as have a 'dumb trainer ') which usually comes out about 90rpmā¦am I losing much by using this lower cadenceā¦ alternative is to go at higher cadence but would struggle to even hold FTP for these intervals!
2 Likes
iām gonna side on doing them at whatever rpm you can, I have an 8 speed bike so I have obvious gaps in my gearing, and so Iām compromising between a gear where I spin fast but donāt get the power as high vs getting the right power at 90-97rpm, so Iāve been opting for the lower rpm and itās working on so far
1 Like
Iāve trained with EC as well as used the Time-Crunched Cyclist program from CTS. I think theyāre both doing the same thing when it comes to VO2max training, as far as inducing a physiological response. But I do think theyāre going about it in different ways and I prefer the CTS method as I can mentally get on board with the efforts. If I go as hard as I can for 5ā using my 2ā power, but only resting 5ā, Iām probably going to die on the second interval. The stimulus to fatigue ratio is way too low for me. When I do max 2ā efforts, Iām sometimes resting 10ā between intervals.
I recall one podcast where Kolie and Kyle go into how athletes with high anaerobic capacities respond to certain VO2max workouts. Like I can do 3x10 30-30ās with relative ease because I either recover my anaerobic stores quickly or donāt really deplete them during the workout. When I break that 1ā mark, everything starts to fail, and at 2ā, Iām basically a dead man and have to wait about 10ā before I can go again. I canāt build repeatability by doing these 2ā efforts but I found that by doing them, my repeatable 5ā power does go up.
2 Likes
High cadence isnāt āmy thingā, I donāt want to take credit for things I blatantly steal from other coaches (Dean Golich, et. al. in this case). Just throwing that out there. Coaches learn from other coaches and most of us donāt have some secret sauce. The difference is HOW we work with our athletes, and WHO we work with, in most cases. Iām not one-size fits all by any stretch.
Anyway, that aside: a few things:
- Iāve said this before here, I separate VO2max training and Max Aerobic Power training. In VO2max, I tend to give concentrated doses looking for a physiological response (central adaptation of increased stroke volume).
- VO2max training in that light is best served by high cadence in two ways:
- Reduces the contractile load on your leg muscles allowing you to do more time/sets/reps with less fatigue. Power may be lower, but thatās a secondary concern here.
- Increases the NUMBER of contractions taking place in your legs/lower legs, which increases the skeletal muscle pump effect. This increases venous return, which in turn increases cardiac output, which helps us achieve higher stroke volume.
- In āMAPā training as I call it, I throw all that out the window and just go ālay down the wattsā and I donāt care how you get there.
How/when/to whom I prescribe that work varies. I usually use MAP work as part of a build (or maintenance for older masters athletes). I usually use VO2max work in concentrated doses because thatās how I think it works best. Doesnāt mean you canāt do a VO2 workout each week.
But again here, I loathe the use of VO2max training for anything in this nebulous āzone 5ā, because you can ride in zone 5, and you might not be training VO2max very well at all. Conversely, at the end of a 5x5 VO2max workout, youāre probably not even in zone 5, but youāre sure as 
still training VO2max. That most VO2max training happens to occur in āzone 5ā is coincidental to the fact that thatās probably the maximum power you can sustain for the given interval length. DEscriptive, not PREscriptive.
Soā¦ how do you get to manage high cadence?
Train it like anything else. Most of my athletes do quite a bit of leg speed work before VO2max blocks for this very reason. 1 min cadence ramps from 80 to 130rpm holding for 60s at each, Team Skyās trainer TT warmup, leg speed sprints, stuff like thatā¦ all can help you improve leg speed and get you holding higher cadences more comfortably.
5 Likes
My theory on that is that youāre getting good training from the anaerobic input to that 5 min power, and by doing 2min, youāre also crossing that fader of where aerobic power takes over from anaerobic power (this is what makes 2min efforts just pure death IMO.) By training at that point, I would expect a bump in 5 min power as well because youāre effectively training the hardest part of managing power well above threshold - that fader/cutover where most people just blow up. Same reason someone can improve their mile time in running by doing shorter speed work, youāre essentially making that 5min power āfeelā easier.
1 Like
Firstā¦ I agree with @kurt.braeckel. An 800 raced from the gun is the the most gut wrenching event on the track. Though the last 150 of a 400 on the 4x400 and the fatigue of a hard run steeplechase race are a close second.
Okā¦ back to the postā¦ When VO2 is stagnant, why hammer more of the same? Revisiting the track analogiesā¦ if training for a 2 mile you arenāt doing a lot of mile repeats. You might do 3 and do them @ goal pace or faster. You probably also drop fast 400ās in there too. So if you want to boost up your VO2 I would propose you mix it upā¦ do 3 x 5 min and make it hurt. 1:1 recovery. A couple days later really hit the 1 min reps. You donāt need to do a huge amountā¦ maybe 10-15 (sets of 5; 1 min between reps and 5 min between sets). Thatās the stuff that will give you a VO2 boost in my opinion.
Doing back to back to back VO2 probably has its place somewhere for somethingā¦ but it seems like you are more grinding through (VO2 endurance) rather than focusing on getting faster (VO2 speed).
I recommend this video and part 2 to those interested:
Also, there at least four episodes of That Triathlon Show with Michael Rosenblat as the guest. He is a researcher that has done several meta analysis papers on intervals. Long HIIT 4min+ seems to beat out short HIIT and SIT intervals for improving time trial performance.
3 Likes
With short rest intervals you are not really recovered from the 3rd on.
So when I do 2min hard x 1min rest. By the 3rd interval I realize Iām in trouble with the 1min rest, since I donāt back off the power (ERG). It only takes me 20-30sec to be in the desired stateā¦.And if you multiplied that by 7-8 intervals you are getting and equivalent TiZ.
What I think this intervals add is the combination of massive power with the ragged breathing, with few compromises. The key is the short recovery period.
Iāve only done a coupleā¦because like you I followed the tradition and usually do 3min and longer. My favorite way to do it is linking up 3-4 KOM attempts of diff durations and I empty the tank on each, obviously recovery periods are longer and irregular.
How long does it take to complete the time trial?
I would need to look at you having done two workouts to compare, but I donāt plan on changing the approach that I know works based on anecdata. 
The goal is not to make every single workout as hard as it can be.
2 Likes
Youād have to dig through his meta-analysis and the supporting research papers.
I found it interesting that he focused on TT performance as the primary outcome rather than some bio-marker that increased but didnāt show improved performance.
Here is his publication list:
Youāll find all of his papers available on Research Gate.
To be clear, when Iām training VO2max, I donāt ever measure VO2max, LOL. Not that kind of coach. But I am seeking a physiological change that will then lead to marked performance gains as measured by field testing.
1 Like
For the vo2 expertsā¦
If the goal of vo2 max intervals isnāt necessarily to hit the highest power target, but is to gain the most time at vo2 max with the highest oxygen uptake, generating the greatest stimulus to the heart muscle and other things that Iāve seen mentioned in this thread and on podcastsā¦wouldnāt it follow that the best vo2 max workout would actually be done cross training with either rowing or skate skiing?
I think itās common knowledge that those disciplines hit higher vo2 max numbers because they recruit more muscles (back & shoulders specifically) and cycling is somewhat limited because itās just legs/glutes and particularly so if those become fatigued.
Obviously youād lose out on the specificity, but Iām still curious if it may be beneficial to incorporate a rowing vo2 max workout into these blocks, especially at the end where your legs might be blown out from the fatigue of the whole block.
1 Like
Certainly not expert, done way less VO2max training than should.
Anyway, had same thought, tried to put it into practice over this winter (rowerg + double poling on skierg, not actual skiing). Unfortunately learned that upper body strength and endurance is not on par with legs i.e. I will tire before getting anywhere near VO2max state. Especially considering recovery phase in those sports movements. From respiratory system perspective, best I could describe it as Sweetspot/threshold level breathing.
For now I continue using SkiErg (around tempo level), in hope to get strong enough to get some VO2max time.
It isnāt like there is no benefit to your legs for doing vo2 bike workouts.
At this level specificity is king. If you are traveling and all you got is some other machine, fine. But if you have a bike, ride the bike.
1 Like