interesting! def in contrast to the EC guys, who I hang out with elsewhere, who want each to be as hard as you can make it and expect fading power. with time there would be less fading. at least for me, going max effort recently as had me setting all time bests, so I sort of favor just giving it full gas. Although I should note there still is a degree of pacing too, so it’s not too all over the place
And the feeling is agony, pure agony. The agony of gasping for breath, your heart hammering in your throat, the taste of blood in your mouth. Your vision blurring, your mind wondering how am I supposed to get to the halfway mark of this interval, let alone finish the interval, let alone do more intervals.
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Yes, and that is largely why I parse out VO2max vs. max aerobic power. Yes, it’s annoying hair-splitting and I know lots of people don’t do it that way, but for me if I am focused on the physiological improvement (stroke volume) the intervals go one way. If I am more concerned with raising power (like race prep) then cadence goes out the window, and we’re pushing power for a set duration as many times as we can.
Where a VO2 set should be 15-24 minutes or so, a “MAP” set or “5 min power set” might have longer rest and the interval number and/or duration will be set by other things. They usually end up being about the same in terms of overall time, but in one I don’t care if power fades since they are “repeatable max efforts” and in the other if power fades it’s a good indication that we’re done and maybe not being productive any longer.
Kolie and his coaches use the Golich style VO2 intervals with their own little tweaks to them, and that’s the same thing I’m doing. I call it “repeatable max effort” and your last sentence hits the nail on the head. Gotta find that output that you can do 7 times which is going to necessarily be a shade lighter than what. you might do all out for 3 minutes once. The higher cadence helps keep that down as well (along with driving the adaptation and preserving your legs). Many people could do more power at a more reasonable cadence than 110rpm+.
Most of my clients have never done focused VO2max work before coming to me, and there is a learning curve here. After a couple of workouts, they know what they’re going for, but for those first ones, a power target is useful just to get them in the right ballpark.
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I have seen what you describe. It is usually in an all-out battle in the 4 x 400. It was not repeatable nor at VO2 pace.
But that is on the track. Maybe it is different on the bike?
4x5 day one. Average from 112 → 110 → 109 → 108 and didn’t throw up at any point.
5x4 day two. Average from 110 → 110 → 109 → 108 → 108. Didn’t realize the trainer had reverted to erg until a while into the first interval… oof.
Open to critiques. Legs fine today on slow-and-steady commute. Will give it 2-3 days and go again.
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If you use ERG, keep in mind that the higher your cadence the easier the resistance (i.e. less force/torque). At a given ERG power, an interval at 90 RPM feels quite different than one at 100 RPM. Not saying use or don’t use ERG - I like it for consistency but find myself pushing a cadence higher than I’d actually prefer.
Was this back to back?
You did a sweetspot progression before this right? What was your “end-boss” sweetspot workout?
Looks like great workouts. I did 6×3’ @ 120% the other day as a first VO2 workout in a long time. Didnt kill me (just).
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Back to back. I finished a threshold block to over 70 minutes. My percentages might be a little low because my FTP auto-updated a few watts higher just before starting the VO2 block. But even if not, I’m happy with them. My 5 minute power has been very close to my FTP and I’m hoping this will raise that low ceiling.
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Some of the intervals look off on the second ride and on the face of it will be understating your power …
@kurt.braeckel I’ve done hard start, high cadence VO2 blocks for the last 3 Januaries. I’m fairly confident I executed them well with 3 weeks of 3 b2b2b days, and started long, and tapered down interval durations, although failed to recover properly from the blocks on years 1 and 2, causing some knock on impacts, and didn’t see gains. Last year I only did 7x3 simply because I felt they are intense enough to get me to the requisite breathing faster than lower intensity longer intervals. I cracked after 2 weeks and 6 workouts but over the following month or 2 picked up 25w.
On one hand, why fix what ain’t broke? But on the other hand, I understand the reasoning for 5 and 6 min intervals. Any thoughts on what you’d prescribe?
Yeah if you got gains from 7x3, I’d probably try to up the overall stimulus (time at high % of VO2max) so a couple ways you could go:
- add overall time (e.g. 8x3), or;
- add more working time when you’re already pegged (e.g. 5x4), or;
- incorporate two-a-days which is the nuclear option (e.g. AM/PM/AM over two days with two or three recovery easy endurance days and then hit it again until you pop)
My approach has been a mix of the first two for most people, and that’s kind of why I’ll start with the 3x6 and then work up to 7x3 because you’re losing time when you’re pegged by shortening the intervals, but drawing out the total time by increasing the number of intervals.
So in my opinion it balances things out and keeps a high stimulus that’s sustainable for that three week block by shortening the intervals but drawing out the overall time.
So maybe start with the 3x6 or 4x5, then go 5x4x 6x3:30, 7x3, etc.
Of course you can go 4x6, 5x5, 6x4, etc and do the same thing.
With the nuclear option, you really have to be dialed in to how you’re feeling and keeping an eye on your metrics to see when you’re doing more harm than good. I’ve done this myself and prescribed it to one person and it works, but there’s a cost… so you’d better know what you’re doing or have good oversight.
As you said, if it works for you, do it, but at some point you’re going to need to increase the stimulus.
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What I have done so far, mostly for my own interest but in case anyone wants an example (maybe of what not to do? Who knows! I will update if I get an ftp bump out of this…):
Set 1:
4x5m
113%, 110%, 109%, 108%
170+ (~94% of max 181bmp) for 16m22s
175+ for 10m42s
Set 2:
5x4m
110%, 110%, 110%, 109%, 108%
170+ for 13m46s
175+ for 8m4s
(2 days easy)
Set 3:
4x5m
110%, 110%, 106%, 111%
170+ for 14m53s
175+ for 5m41s
(1 day easy)
Set 4:
4x5m
114%, 113%, 110%, 108%
170+ for 16m36s
175+ for 11m47s
180+ (100%) for 1m54s
Set 5:
5x4m
111%, 110%, 111%, 110%, 111%
170+ for 14m36s
175+ for 8m29s
(2 days easy)
Set 6:
4x5m
114%, 109%, 108%, 111%
170+ for 14m57s
175+ for 5m41s
(2 days easy)
Set 7:
5x4m
113%, 113%, 111%, 109%, 110%
170+ for 13m44s
175+ for 4m2s
Set 8 will probably be tomorrow, though it depends on sleep tonight. I had a hard time holding 110rpm today, though power looks like it ended up better than it felt like it was going to. Legs are tired. Motivation is struggling. A little over of pushing myself to the verge of throwing up day after day. I will be so glad to be done with this!
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Set 8:
6x3.5m
114%, 113%, 111%, 111%, 111%, 112%
170+ for 12m7s
175+ for only 9s
Set 9:
6x3.5m
111%, 116%, 114%, 113%, 111%, 113%
170+ for 11m47s
175+ for 4m16s
Now I just need to figure out how to recover.
Thoughts: why do this in three weeks rather than, say, 2 weeks on, one week off, 2 more weeks on, 1 week off? Is 3 workouts spaced at 24 hours apart really worse than 3 spaced at 12 hours apart? Why? Is it really worth doing this without a coach to help decide whether you are building or digging a hole? If power isn’t really relevant and heart rate isn’t really relevant, should I have been trying to note when my breathing goes off the rails each interval to determine if it’s working? Anyway, just things I will be contemplating during recovery while I keep my fingers crossed that this actually did something.
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Just wanted to give you (and the others in this thread) kudos for doing this. Feel like too many times on this and other forums people ask the questions without ever trying anything. I hope it works out for you!
I tried a 2 week vo2 block a few months back but stupidly changed like 4 other things at once. Tried moving workouts to the morning (which I never do), started lifting, played some pickup basketball all basically the same week. That was dumb. So naturally I crashed and burned.
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Where you put VO2 max block? What about between base and treshold/speciality phase?
Whenever you need to raise the ceiling on your aerobic fitness. A good indicator would be your TTE at FTP going out past 50 or 55 minutes.
More often than not this means it’ll be during build. Have a chill week after. Then test your FTP. Then do an extensive threshold block at your new FTP.
A million other ways to do it, obvs.
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I’ve been having the same thoughts, regarding whether to do 2-a-days. I assume by periodising the workouts ‘densely’, this would provide a stronger adaptive signal to the body. The aim then is to recover and reap the benefits. This may be more optimal than dragging things out over 6 weeks.
I think blocking VO2s can get into marginal gains territory - squeezing out an extra 5% or whatever. But IMO, if I’m going to put myself through such a block, I want everything I can get out of it.
I got 25w last year from VO2 blocks - this was over 2 blocks (January - 15w, then another 5w about 3 weeks later when things felt a smidge too easy. In my 2nd block in May I only got another 5w). I was planning on doing a VO2 block early January this year, but got a cold in my recovery week over xmas, so ended up with almost 2 weeks easy - meaning my legs have gone stale. I’ve started prepping with a 30/30 workout at the weekend, but my legs still haven’t come back round yet.
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Here we go again. 2024 work underway with a 4x6 done on the trainer in resistance mode.
Worrying about HR isn’t the be all end all to me, since so much impacts it (e.g. I had an espresso about 30 mins prior), but I like to make sure it’s nice and high, and it’s a reminder to keep pushing the cadence. 22.5 mins over 90% max and ~15 mins over 95% max are nice healthy numbers though IMO.
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6min @ 423w! Big legs over here. Good work.
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Big Fat legs 