What would a custom VO2 max progression look like?

[2DollarLegs]

Are you shifting down a gear after the hard start? If so, I found that the power drops as you find the tension on the chain after the shift down and then the power finds its level. Also, how’s your cadence during these?

One thing I took from listening to Kolie’s podcasts around 20 x during my block around hard starts was start hard and keep going, close your eyes and thing of England as opposed to powering out the blocks and then declining into a U shape.

Just my method from my first block was to find a gear that I could hit for 110 rpm and then hold on as long as I could until needing to shift down

[Samus]

@2DollarLegs

Are you shifting down a gear after the hard start?

Sometimes. I’ve been experimenting with both a higher resistance at the start vs. ludicrous RPM at the resistance I intend to hold. I think the latter works better at getting the HR up fast. During the rest of the interval I try to keep my RPM above 100, now above 105 (this has improved over the past few weeks). My normal cadence is low (60-70).

[Edit] Here’s an example of the cadence. You can see RPM stays pretty stable after the initial hard start. Power rises. I’m not touching the resistance at all during the rise, just focusing on even power throughout all of the pedal stroke.

I have a decent amount of anaerobic capacity and that could be related to these results. Mentally the upswing feels like “discomfort - settle in - push harder - discomfort - settle in - push harder” etc. The thing is that I don’t know if the U-shape is necessarily bad? Perhaps I’m still eliciting the appropriate training stress. But it doesn’t look like the example @empiricalcycling gave above:

@empiricalcycling

I’m going to try to focus a bit more on RPM next session and see what happens.

[2DollarLegs]

While I’m far from an expert see my graph below. Hard out the gates to get the power up then shift down when it’s too much and hold on for dear life smashing the RPMs.

You can see the power come off when I shift down quite explicitly. The power is then neat even for the rest of the intervals.

This was a 4x5 session in the last week of my recent VO2 block so I was fatigued and holding on for dear life to get through this week.

All of these were done with 110rpm the goal. Had to check the power ego at the door. Look at my HR to confirm I most def hit the mark

The graph shows power, 30 sec power, HR and then RPM in descending order. You can see I achieved a pretty consistent power and RPM for each set

One take away from my graph to yours is you can see how the 110 RPM ramps the HR much quicker to get me into the ‘please make it stop’ zone a touch faster than yours does and from the bazillion listens to the Kolie’s pods I came away with that is the intent. More time in the ‘why am I doing this to myself’ zone.

[kurt.braeckel]

With a high anaerobic capacity, you don’t want to have quite that large of a spike. You would probably be better off going LONGER at a lower power for the hard start and focusing on keeping up the leg speed. The intervals the way you’re doing them are going to target a bit too much anaerobic capacity, and you want to be focused on the aerobic adaptation. I usually try and give my athletes a little bit of guidance on the hard starts depending on their profile, but in general athletes with a large anaerobic capacity want to do lower power on the hard start. You definitely don’t want to see a massive dip in power. You’re effectively “wasting” (not really but you get the drift) about half of the interval. Much rather see it fade throughout.

Actually just in general - regardless of your capacity - that hard start is way too hard. It looks like you’re doing close to 200% of FTP on those starts, so a 300W FTP doing 600W at the start of your interval… that’s way, way too much. For reference, when I was a 280W FTP doing these early season, I was hard starting at like 375ishW and then typically working 320 on down to FTP for the intervals (all out throughout for what I could sustain and repeat based on interval length).

It’s a “hard start” relative to the interval, not a “hard start” relative to what you can actually do. So yeah, you’re going out way, way too hard.

[Pbase]

Thanks for sharing this. Especially the very specific examples. I’ve read a lot on the topic and never realized what you’re saying. As always, thank you for all you share. Very, very helpful.

[Samus]

@kurt.braeckel

With a high anaerobic capacity, you don’t want to have quite that large of a spike. You would probably be better off going LONGER at a lower power for the hard start and focusing on keeping up the leg speed.

Unfortunately I did my next workout prior to this response and advice. I have one more VO2Max workout in this block on Wednesday, so will try lowering the resistance and focusing more on cadence next time.

Anyhow, here was today’s workout (11/12 in this three-week block). For context, this is my third VO2Max workout in a set of three back-to-back days. Not how I would’ve planned it in an ideal world, but it’s what my schedule allows. Either way, I feel like I’ve gotten accustomed to the set of 3 in a row. Garmin’s HRV-based body battery recharges from 30-40 back up to 100 overnight, as long as I get enough sleep. This was not the case at the start of the block. For whatever that’s worth.

Each interval was done at the same resistance with no shifting down. The power spike is due to ludicrous cadence at the start. I’ve added 90% HRMax and 110 RPM lines for reference.

I tried to pay more attention to the subjective experience during these intervals (below). My guess at what is happening is that my legs are getting a lactic acid dump from the anaerobic effort, then as HR and RR rise, the ability to clear it out improves, allowing for a progressively higher effort. During the rise, I’m not just focusing on spinning faster, but also having more controlled and even force distribution during the pedal stroke. I’ve found that this makes me uncomfortable and raises HR and RR.

@kurt.braeckel

The intervals the way you’re doing them are going to target a bit too much anaerobic capacity, and you want to be focused on the aerobic adaptation… You’re effectively “wasting” (not really but you get the drift) about half of the interval. Much rather see it fade throughout.

Could I ask the theory behind why half the interval is “wasted” with the power dip?

From what I recall from @empiricalcycling 's podcast:

1. Ignore power
2. High cadence
3. Focus on respiratory rate (“gasping like a fish”)
4. Kinda monitor HR (kinda)

The (too hard) starts do raise HR and ventilation rate very fast and they continue to rise steadily, instead of dipping down with power. (I don’t have quantifiable metrics on RR, but subjectively it does not feel like I am letting up.) It seems like the above criteria are being satisfied (albeit, with a temp dip in cadence), so am I missing out on appropriate VO2 max training stress during the power dip? I would love to learn more if you have the time to explain.

I’ll try the intervals with less hard starts on Wednesday.

[Samus]

@2DollarLegs

One take away from my graph to yours is you can see how the 110 RPM ramps the HR much quicker to get me into the ‘please make it stop’ zone a touch faster than yours

Is this the case? I don’t see time marks on your screenshot so it is hard for me to compare. It looks around the same on an absolute scale to me. That weird concave slope of my HR jump is likely an artifact of wristwatch HR. One thing to note is that my HR increases throughout the interval whereas yours dips a little and stays constant. The steady rise more closely resembles the example @empiricalcycling posted above. My rationale is, if we’re seeking cardiovascular adaptations, why not push the system harder if it’s physically/mentally possible? Granted all of this chart scruntiny might be trivial in terms of eliciting the appropriate adaptations. Hard to say. Many paths up the VO2Max mountain.

My Garmin Firstbeat-based VO2 max has increased 1 point/day the past three days (no change in weight, same ambient temp). But waaaaaaay to early to tell anything and soooo many grains of salt with non-lab VO2 max. Very likely just artifact of me getting used to the workouts + how Firstbeat works.

[kurt.braeckel]

@Samus

Could I ask the theory behind why half the interval is “wasted” with the power dip?

“Wasted” is a bad word.

But you’re kind of going about it a little wrong. It’d be more ideal to do 110rpm for the entire interval, rather than “ludicrous cadence” for one minute and then fading like that. If you’re doing these right, you can’t “kick” at the end. These are supposed to be basically all-out repeatable intervals, which means you shouldn’t necessarily be getting stronger at the end than in the middle.

You’re simply burning through sugar at the beginning of the interval, and then when that gets a little low, that’s why your legs are feeling like lead. You don’t want that.

To say “ignore power” isn’t really correct either. Rather, you don’t set a specific power target for these, and in the case of someone with strong anaerobic capacity, I usually cap their power for the hard start or skip it altogether.

High cadence and all out is what you’re really after. The “all out” part is the hard one for people to dial in, but most people doing these sets effectively will see power drop through the interval, particularly in the latter intervals, and then power will probably drop overall throughout the set.

From looking at your graphs, the hard starts are too hard and that is compromising the execution of the rest of the intervals. In other words, you’re getting a pretty good anaerobic stimulus from the hard starts, which look both too hard and too long, and then you’re having to recover mid-interval and then you’re starting to work in the last minute or so.

So my advice would be to shorten the hard start to 15s or so, do it at more like your max 2min power, and then settle in at 105-110rpm and go as hard as you can sustain for the interval duration.

This is more what I want to see (green is cadence, yellow is power, this is 5x4min). These are a set of mine from a few years ago, but done out on the road which you can see some shifting in the green/cadence graph. But the general trends are good. Note how short the hard start is relative to yours.

The way you are currently executing them is going to give you a larger anaerobic stimulus and also have a higher fatigue cost, yet less benefit for what you’re actually targeting. Your legs should not feel like lead and 100rpm should not be a struggle 1 min into the interval.

Finally, I don’t have any circumstances where I would ever give someone back-to-back-to-back days of these, personally. Kolie may disagree. I’ve done and I’ve prescribed (to exactly one person) three sets in two days, but again that’s assuming someone NEEDS that much stimulus (which most don’t) and then that they’re executing them properly (i.e. high cadence and managing the hard start to minimize fatigue).

I would recommend taking a rest day or easy ride before you try this again, personally.

[kurt.braeckel]

@Samus

My rationale is, if we’re seeking cardiovascular adaptations, why not push the system harder if it’s physically/mentally possible? Granted all of this chart scruntiny might be trivial in terms of eliciting the appropriate adaptations. Hard to say. Many paths up the VO2Max mountain.

The way you’re executing it is giving you a great anaerobic stimulus at the cost of the better aerobic stimulus you’re looking for. If you go after this block and test your 1min and 5min power again, you’re probably going to see some gains in 1min power, not as much in 5min or FTP by the fact that you are (pretty grossly) over-emphasizing the hard start at the expense of the rest of the interval. Again, that’s just my opinion here.

[Samus]

@kurt.braeckel

So my advice would be to shorten the hard start to 15s or so, do it at more like your max 2min power, and then settle in at 105-110rpm and go as hard as you can sustain for the interval duration.

Super helpful, I will give this a go next workout (my 2 min power is about 150% of my FTP, fwiw). I might also try a steady state 110 RPM interval as well, just to get a baseline.

@kurt.braeckel

@Samus

My rationale is, if we’re seeking cardiovascular adaptations, why not push the system harder if it’s physically/mentally possible? Granted all of this chart scruntiny might be trivial in terms of eliciting the appropriate adaptations. Hard to say. Many paths up the VO2Max mountain.

The way you’re executing it is giving you a great anaerobic stimulus at the cost of the better aerobic stimulus you’re looking for.

I was specifically talking about pushing HR up during the middle/end of the interval (as in Kolie’s and your example) as opposed to having a steady HR (as seen @2DollarLegs graph). The rationale behind the (too) hard start was to get HR and RR up high as fast as possible, not attempt an “all out.”

@kurt.braeckel

Finally, I don’t have any circumstances where I would ever give someone back-to-back-to-back days of these, personally. Kolie may disagree. I’ve done and I’ve prescribed three sets in two days, but again that’s assuming someone NEEDS that much stimulus (which most don’t) and then that they’re executing them properly (i.e. high cadence and managing the hard start to minimize fatigue).

I would recommend taking a rest day or easy ride before you try this again, personally.

Yeah, the next workout is in 2 days. Basically my week looks like XXXOXOO or XXXOOXO. Not how I would’ve planned it in an ideal world, but it’s what my schedule allows.

I came into this block with every intention of adjusting the volume if I saw signs of overtraining or poor-quality workouts. Nothing has really rang that alarm bell, so to speak. Over the course of the block I’ve gone from feeling “meh” to “good” on Day 3 of the back-to-backs. Quad tendons are feeling fine (where I tend to get injured from too much load without enough recovery). Garmin Body Battery shows full recovery overnight between sessions. I’m not failing intervals or seeing a decline in performance by Day 3. I’m not sure how to measure fatigue cost outside of these mentioned metrics.

Average interval power between Day 1 and 3 was about the same (with confounder of added 1 min rest). Eg, this 3-day back-to-back-to-back was:

Day 1: 5x4 w/ 4 mins rest [avg interval power 131% FTP]
Day 2: 4x5 w/ 6 mins rest [avg interval power 125% FTP]
Day 3: 5x4 w/ 5 mins rest [avg interval power 133% FTP] (today)

Perhaps my too hard start is actually limiting fatigue somehow? Maybe I will find Day 3 intolerable once I fix the power curve. But that seems opposite of what you’re saying (too much anaerobic focus yields a bad “aerobic training:fatigue” ratio). I promise I am not sandbagging the workouts. RPE 8-10. In your coaching experience, what would you (and others here) recommend I watch for in terms of fatigue costs?

(And again, I thank you so much for your time. This VO2 block has been highly experimental and I appreciate all the input as I try to figure this out.)

[2DollarLegs]

Hey Samus - Apologies if you think I was being negative towards your effort - I was merely pointing out a small thing I could see in your graph - as I said in my original post the 110rpm ramps the HR up a touch quicker which if it gives you 10 secs an interval more in zone than over 5 intervals that’s nearly a minute more which is what I took as the main objective of VO2 training.

@kurt.braeckel feel free to tear apart my graph and offer suggestions to make the intervals better so anyone who reads these can do their blocks as good as possible if you so choose.

Understand people pay for your advice so no hard feelings if you choose not to.

[Samus]

Oh, I did not think you had a negative tone, so no worries. The thrust of my remarks were at how our attempt to compare and contrast charts felt like reading tea leaves without a solid understanding of the underlying mechanisms.

[2DollarLegs]

I think the only significant difference I can tell between the two of us - based on our own words - is the cadence differences.

From what Kolie said on the pods - as you seem to be aware - the 110+ gave us the best chance of eliciting the physical response we are after.

My graph loos the way it does because I made that - 110rpm - the focus of my block with everything else being secondary and analysed after the fact.

The final session of my block I couldn’t get my HR as high for the same effort/RPE as I did during the early phase indicating that I was probably done.

Kurt is far more educated than me to give any advice and I’m glad he freely offers that to all of us out here trying to get our best out of every session

[kurt.braeckel]

@Samus

In your coaching experience, what would you (and others here) recommend I watch for in terms of fatigue costs?

A lot of it is subjective, really. Being cranky, tired, etc. A key to this is keeping the rest of your rides really easy, like bottom of zone 2, easy endurance pace or lower. If you do these blocks right, the mental fatigue is as much a factor as the physical, if not more. Being able to go truly max for that many days in a short period is hard.

I think the too hard hard start is probably limiting the overall effectiveness of the intervals. Done properly, you aren’t building power throughout and finishing strong. I think you’re leaving some work on the table, while creating some muscular fatigue that we’re generally trying to avoid with these.

@2DollarLegs

feel free to tear apart my graph and offer suggestions to make the intervals better so anyone who reads these can do their blocks as good as possible if you so choose.

As happens with some people, you’re overcomplicating these with the hard stuff followed by lower and steadier IMO. Take a look at the graph I shared above - that’s really what you’re looking for. You want to be going as hard as you reasonably can at basically any part of the interval, keeping in mind you’re doing this for 20 min. If at any point you’re really managing your power (except probably the hard start in many cases) while spinning like a crazy person, you’re leaving some on the table.

Spin fast, go repeatably all-out for the duration of each interval. Recover (up to 1:2 work:rest ratio). Go again. If you’re doing it right, the fish out of water breathing takes care of itself. I absolutely do not obsess over HR in real time as a standalone metric at any point during these blocks.

@2DollarLegs

The final session of my block I couldn’t get my HR as high for the same effort/RPE as I did during the early phase indicating that I was probably done.

Actually this is a completely normal and expected response. There are numbers that I look at (and Kolie’s coaches do too) during these blocks that can help us determine from afar if progress is still happening or if you’re cooked. Kolie protects it on his podcast, and out of respect for him, I’ll just stick to my usual guns of, “I manage these blocks very closely with my athletes for a reason.” Kolie and his coaches do the same. (Disclosure is while I was coaching a couple years ago I hired Cory Lockwood from EC to coach me for my race season - coaches need coaches too!)

I talk face-to-face with all of my athletes before a block like this to go over interval execution. These can be tough to explain and get right, but once you get them, you “get” them and you know the difference. I also typically lead into these blocks with high cadence work such that it’s not such a shock to the system, especially for people used to riding at like 80rpm.

Don’t be afraid to fail an interval early in one of these blocks. It can help you learn what your sustainable/repeatable all out is, and then you can keep going back to that feeling over and over again and you’ll get a lot more out of it. I usually start people with something like a 3x6 just so they can f around and find out, then execute the 4x5 and 5x4 type sets more effectively.

[Samus]

Another follow-up. I didn’t get to my 12/12 VO2 workout due to some work things coming up. So it was just 11/12 over three weeks. Took a week and a half off the bike. Did a bit of lifting. Finished a long (3x15 min) threshold workout today, attempting to maximize a steady power output during each interval. (Not interested in a ramp test.)

• ~14% increase in TR AI-estimated FTP compared to the start of the VO2 block. It is possible that FTP was a little underestimated at the start of the block, so this # could be closer to an 10% increase.
• ~7% increase in Garmin VO2 max compared to the start of the VO2 block. Confounded by some weight loss. The estimation today is the same as the estimation during the last VO2 max workout.
• 45 average “fitness” (intervals’ CTL) during the block.
• 4h of cycling per week during the block.
• 1h40m of sauna per week; I would do 20-30 mins of sauna immediately after; I’m already heat- and volume-adapted as a regular sauna user prior to this.

Anyhow, I’m pretty happy with these improvements, especially given how low the volume was.

I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be doing in the interim before I start my next block. I figure I’d just throw in some some threshold work before my next VO2 block. But would SS be better? I could also go out for a Z2 century. I’m trying to find some info on the empirical cycling podcast about what is best.

[Helvellyn]

Well done

Ease back into it and don’t do any more VO2 Max work for at least 3 months, I think.

What you do next depends on your goals, but you should expect your new shiny FTP to mean a shortened TTE, so as a default you probably want to extend that out.

SS and threshold are basicially the same.

[2DollarLegs]

Results are in.

10w improvement in FTP or 4% that’s after a 3/1 VO2 max block and a 3/1 SS/Threshold block.

My gut feel is that my AIFTP was too high originally and now my FTP is set based on Kolie’s VO2 test.

Looking at my 1 min and 5 min power increases over the same period I think my true FTP gain is probably closer to 20w and 8% over the 8 weeks.

My TTE is most def better and the SS and threshold work I did was solid and def proved the underlying fitness was real as I was able to complete over 60 min of SS work for the past 3 weeks finishing with 65 mins. All TR workouts.

That’s based on the ‘new’ FTP numbers and not the old numbers so I was confident if anything my FTP then might have been too low.

I’m going into an 8 week Sustained Power build following TR program and progression where I will begin my crit season at the end of the block.

[mwglow15]

Nice!

Next steps sorta depend on what you have coming in the next months. I would definitely caution doing another VO2 block like that for at least 3 months (probably closer to 6). The gains can be great but they are super fatiguing.

To me, dropping back to SS is too much a step back. It would be fine to start with FTP intervals and to start to extend your new FTP from 3x15 up to 60 or more minutes TTE. If you have racing coming up then it would be a good time to start peppering in race specific intervals (if you do crits then 30/30s and such are good).

@Samus

I could also go out for a Z2 century

It’s always a good time for long Z2 volume. No matter the intensity your block is focusing on you should almost never drop your volume too low for too long. It’s the foundation on which all other adaptations are built upon.

[Samus]

For the people recommending 3+ months before the next VO2 max block, what is the rationale behind this? Are we worried about stressing the heart out too much?

@mwglow15

It would be fine to start with FTP intervals and to start to extend your new FTP from 3x15 up to 60 or more minutes TTE. If you have racing coming up then it would be a good time to start peppering in race specific intervals (if you do crits then 30/30s and such are good).

I could probably try a 4x15 next, or work up to it. I attempted another 3x15 the following day and that was a MISTAKE. For whatever reason, my body handled back-to-back VO2 max workouts better than back-to-back 3x15s.

I do ultra endurance so my main goal is to get my Z2 sustainable pace up.

@mwglow15

It’s always a good time for long Z2 volume. No matter the intensity your block is focusing on you should almost never drop your volume too low for too long

For the purposes of maintaining VO2 max gains? On the flip side, I have found endurance gains to stick around for long periods of time, even after being completely off the bike for a while.

[mwglow15]

@Samus

For the people recommending 3+ months before the next VO2 max block, what is the rationale behind this? Are we worried about stressing the heart out too much?

From what I understand it’s mostly about just the stress of a VO2 block. It’s such a concentrated amount of stress that requires a lot of recovery afterward that you tend to miss out on lots of other kinds of training. Like when I did one it took me nearly a month afterward to feel completely normal again. To lose a whole month multiple times a year would start to add up. You also get more from the VO@ block when your FTP begins to bump up against it’s current TTE limits. So it’s good to take time to let your fitness build up at your new, higher level before attempting to break through again.

I could probably try a 4x15 next, or work up to it.

I’d work up to that. IME it’s more reasonable to expect like 2-4 min increases between weeks or workouts. So leave your intervals flexible and be prepared to stop early if you feel you’ve reached TTE.

@Samus

I attempted another 3x15 the following day and that was a MISTAKE. For whatever reason, my body handled back-to-back VO2 max workouts better than back-to-back 3x15s.

Lol yeah FTP workouts consume large amounts of energy and are pretty difficult to do successfully back to back. I think because the VO2s have such an anaerobic contribution you are able to hit them back to back better.

@Samus

For the purposes of maintaining VO2 max gains? On the flip side, I have found endurance gains to stick around for long periods of time, even after being completely off the bike for a while

Yup, don’t forget that another way to raise your VO2 is by high volume endurance riding. It’s not completely the same adaptations but there is a lot of overlap. And it’s much much easier to maintain gains like that than to improve them.

Though someone can maybe answer that better than me. I mostly race crits so through race season I’m not doing many VO2 intervals but I’m still touching on that during a 60min crit. So you might need to do something different if your competitions are more long and low.