What is the real problem with TR / Wahoo? [Adaptive Training]

I think that’s a very fair summary - and we have historically seen much better execution from TR than this, which is why it’s very disappointing.

AT clearly turned out to be way harder than they expected - yet still surprising that it’s being heavily marketed. And I think the AT delays have absolutely spilled over to hurt a lot of other things that were dependent on it like TrainNow, the newly released “starter level” plans and immediate removal of existing plans, now requiring a lot of manual replacements when I’m sure the plan was that AT was going to be there to manage this seamlessly… maybe time at TR to focus on Wahoo is just a casualty of all that. Or maybe for business reasons Wahoo sees no reason to help TR extricate themselves from a public debacle. Which also doesn’t make me happy as a Wahoo customer. I don’t want to give more $ to either company in this state.

It’s definitely a cult… :smile: - and the fact that so many unpaid users are compelled to comment / defend suggests that they care… now if only the company collecting our subscription $$ also did :thinking:

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And Garmin connect had a workout system in their ecosystem/headunits. Perhaps closer to TRs?

Where are all my Karoo fanbois …we should be angry too

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Yeah, not sure what’s being pushed, figured it would just be the FIT file. Just wondering out loud as the the FIT files on Strava seem the same, so I’m curious what is “broken” with Strava sync and workouts.

image
here are the options available from Garmin Connect… maybe its just splits via CSV TR uses. My guess is they upload to google earth and take it from there in the background. Thats why the map takes a few seconds to paint

It’s why I want to compare Wahoo files to Garmin files.

And as stated earlier there appears to be no native Strava API for TR to receive the original Wahoo fit file.

Kind of my thoughts too, you know the intervals for base after a while, if you need to dial it down easy enough! I was excited for adaptive training but I need one of those 3 outdoor workouts a week to be outside otherwise what’s the point in riding?! Oh it says on my workouts that petit is a stretch, erm no I think I can handle that one thanks.

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Could somebody check the Wahoo workout fit file using https://www.fitfileviewer.com?

I did check the Garmin workout and two thing I noticed. One is the info about the workout + steps ( first image below), this is telling quite straight forward the name of the workout and steps of it. Then second image contains laps + message_id, using these informations TR can then map the workout + parse the steps to their workout, maybe. This is only my assumption since I do not know how their logic is implemented.


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This has always been my assumption too - only Garmin’s fit files happen to include these workout step details to do the compliance checking.

TR is never going to be able to get every device manufacturer and Strava to provide exactly the sort of interval data to do interval checking. My guess is that this is waiting for outdoor unstructured workouts to be included more generally which would mean going beyond basic checking of interval compliance. In other words not some big conspiracy. :slight_smile:

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I was going to say the exact same thing but forgot to add it to my post :slight_smile: But that is my personal feeling too.

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Let’s at least get workouts to sync to the Karoo, pls. Then we can complain about AT integration!

If I dual record with my garmin 920xt watch will that be used by AT or does it need to come from an edge?

OR, Wahoo is purposely not developing this because their main mission is to cut out TR entirely because the staff doesn’t use the Kickr and speak highly of the H3 :thinking:

I dual record with my Wahoo Element and Garmin Forerunner 735xt and it works with AT. It’s a bit of a pain trying to manage both devices at times, but at least allows me to get workouts done outside.

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Why can’t this just be done manually? Like a “Yes, I completed the workout” or “Workout completed outside” button that will then give you the appropriate bump in progression levels. Or even when you link your outdoor workout to the associated indoor, it could register that it was completed and give the appropriate bump?

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Outdoor unstructured would fix all of this…

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that is a really good point.

I am not sure of how the AT beta determines PL scores though. For instance, I know even on indoor workouts, it doesn’t take into account if you increased/decreased intensity. I am not sure if it takes into account if you did/didn’t hit the set target (like if you didn’t pedal), or if you extend/cut short a workout. If not, then the survey itself and a mapping to the workout would be all you need.

  • That is not entirely true. I know for a fact that I have earned at least one “Super Pass” as a result of increasing the workout intensity and matching those higher power targets.

  • I also suspect they are also watching for reductions, and will eventually trigger a “Struggle” survey if you drop it enough. I have no idea what that thresh for that or the “Super Pass” actually are, and I doubt we will learn them from TR.

  • Yes, they are looking for this. Like above, if you notably exceed or fall short of the power targets, that can trigger the “Super Pass” or a “Struggle” survey.

  • And if you modify the workout by pausing excessively in the recovery intervals, or do things like backpedal in a work interval, it can lead to a “Struggle” survey.

  • People have reported those basic outcomes, and they make sense that TR is watching for those in light of making proper changes to Progression Levels to keep us pointed in the right direction.

  • It’s not that simple, as mentioned above. The actual determination of if and how much to alter Progression levels looks at the prescribed workout, your current PL’s, and how you actually performed with those power targets to make the final changes to PL’s.
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thanks Chad – on the first point about increasing IF - I have exchanged multiple emails with support on this and they have been clear this has no impact on PL. Maybe that changed, but was told to me as recently as last week. I also did a Productive workout at 115-120% last week and didn’t change PL or trigger a different/additional survey (i have never seen one of those). N=1 and I know TR hasn’t specifically said what triggers PL changes, but I did ask a few times.

Thanks!

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I do believe the “no additional change to PL from Intensity increase is true”. It’s the very reason I complained to TR about it because I effectively did a workout over 1.5 points higher when you compared my completed work to a very similar workout.

As such, they said that lack of more PL change was under review, and likely would be altered at some point. I have no idea if/when they will actually alter it, but the recognize now that ignoring that is a mistake and seem intent on making some change as a result.

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Yep, this has been my assumption too.

Out riding ? using Xert ?

I think there is something more interesting here though, at 1hr:20:30 - 1h:22:00 in the initial “adaptive training” video on Feburary 25th, they say that if you they have a internal version of AT that credits your training for unstructured outside rides, “you just turn on your garmin or wahoo, do 2 * 20 @ threshold, and then tack on 4hr zone 2 and you get creditid accuratly” …“we just need to increase the accuracy”

They can’t even do with that with workouts done in TR, so what has happened to these feathures that were writen, in the the last 5 months (when according to Nate at 1:20, outside structurd workout worked (so presumably on Wahoo and Garmin))

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