Was all my VO2 max work a waste of time?

He didn’t have to say that they said they aske ‘why they spent so much time doing workouts they hated’ and folk tod him simply why. If you want to read something else into it sobeit, lifes too short.

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Back at you, as you are selectively quoting, and missing context from the rest of the same parapraph, I have quoted it below so you can re-read

Erm I think you’re the thing that which you abhor.

This too meta, I’ll wait for the OP to respond instead.

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I think road plans were/still are a bit confusing and they have recently been renamed.

Essentially climbing road has you doing two vo2 per week and gran fondo one.

However, I have always wondered myself, considering that these are specialty plans, is it really necessary to keep doing vo2 workouts after the build phase which focuses on vo2?

The bog standard classic training periodization is

base

build (extensive intervals aka threshold)

peak (intensive intervals - I believe TR calls a lot of this “VO2max” because of the %ftp)

race

(Yes, one could slice and dice this a million different ways. All roads lead to Rome or Tokyo.)

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Some roads also lead to Burnout City. :grin:

Like:
18w base with VO2max
8w build with VO2max
8w speciality with VO2max

I have been wondering about this myself since I’m someone who goes for long distances. I’ve heard ultra endurance cyclist Mark Beaumont talk about reverse periodization where he does hard intervals in the off season (what would be base months for other people) and then does more easier but longer riding. I’m going to finally get a copy of the book he published with GCN to see if I can glean more details about that instead of going of the couple of sentence description I’ve heard from him here and there. I am especially curious about when the switch over from regular periodization to reverse periodization is useful–I am not even thinking about going as far as Mark Beaumont goes, even if I ride further than most people.

On the podcast, TR has admitted that they don’t have a training plan aimed at ultra endurance, though Gran Fondo is the closest thing which is thus what the suggest for ultra endurance. I wonder though if it wouldn’t be better to do base again, especially one of the base plans though only has a single day of threshold, instead of a threshold day and VO2 day. Or even something more like the traditional base which, for the first 2 sections, doesn’t have any (of what TR calls) threshold.

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I’ll chime in with everyone else.

When I looked into this, the recommended plan was Gran Fondo, formerly Century I think (Not CRR or XCM). For Low Volume, Generally it had me doing a blend of Sweet Spot, Threshold, VO2 with even less VO2 at certain phases.

Thanks everyone for your discussion! A little more info since some have asked. I was on the Low Volume Plan and I did every workout starting the Training Plan with Plan Builder on January 17. I would usually add an easy (Lazy Mountain -1 IF .43) 1 hour ride with my wife on Friday night, and a 2-3 hour endurance ride with a 1.5-2 hour climb on Sunday. During the Specialty phase 2 of 3 “workouts” were V02 Max. I was not trying to be critical of TrainerRoad. I am 50 years old and only been riding my bike about 5 years. This is my second year using power and TrainerRoad as a training tool and I have never been more fit in my life! But was just wondering if I would have been better served using a different training plan. I don’t know enough about this to pick and choose my own workouts, but based on what I have read I would probably do the Gran Fondo Plan next time. I don’t mind the occasional V02 workout, but 2 out of 3 was kind of depressing and if it went on much longer I might have started to burnout. I do have another question. The day after my ride I had to leave on a road trip so was unable to ride at all for a week. I did manage to go for some walks and a short hike, but that was about it. I start back on the bike tomorrow and I see TrainerRoad has me on a Recovery week. I like the idea of easing back into things for my ride tomorrow, but is 3 Recovery rides after a week off necessary? Thanks again to everyone who has weighed in!

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It depends how you feel. Try the first one, if you feel weak, stick to it. If you end the ride feeling strong then up the next one.

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How do you feel? Was it a completely relaxing week? Do you still feel burnt out a bit? Its ultimately your call. If you feel raring to go, you might want to check out TrainNow but bare in mind if you’re plan may have more more strenuous sessions coming up. Good luck :+1:

How are they nonsense?

You’ve sent me Googling. I found a meta analysis from last year that says that reverse periodization isn’t better than periodization–but it also might not be worse. It calls for more study, and really hints that periodization/reverse periodization aren’t well defined.

I also found this, that argues that what is being discussed here isn’t reverse periodization, but just normal periodization, because it still ends up with workouts that are closer to the power needed in the actual event. And that reverse periodization would only be an accurate term if long less intense training were used by someone planning on racing with periods of high intensity.

I’m looking in large part because my A event was similar to the OPs. I did use the low volume gran fondo plan (supplemented by additional long rides, mostly at endurance/tempo) but it didn’t seem like the prescribed workouts during speciality really helped–though I realize I can’t actually know that, and that might only be true psychologically. Ultimately, the prescribed workouts, at least the threshold/VO2 ones, ended up close to overwhelming. Though, I do think that the training earlier in the year helped me get ready, and between that and the self prescribed lower intensity work, I was ready for my event and really enjoyed the day.

I have vague plans for a self supported double century in late summer/early fall and I’m planning on focusing on high endurance and tempo with less high intensity, though still some. I expect to change that around, though, based on how I feel, and maybe based on any group rides that I end up doing.

Correct. It is all “periodization”…but the order of the types of periods are rearranged (when compared to a “traditional” training model).

As noted, it has to do w/ specificity (as well as time management). The theory is that it works best for long-course triathletes and I would imagine long-distance gravel racers, as well.

During the winter, you focus on shorter, more intense workouts (usually inside, hence the time management aspect) to boost the FTP and then as you approach your A race, you add in more distance based on that new, higher FTP.

Whether it works or works “better”… :man_shrugging:t2:

Personally, I have always found that a more traditional periodization schedule works best for me, evne when I was doing full IM and now doing long distance gravel events.

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“Reverse” periodization usually refers to doing things “backwards” from typical - that is, intensity early, then easier stuff late. But as you said, it’s not really reverse IMO because most of the time I do it it’s for ultra distance events where the endurance/tempo stuff os race specific and there is no need for high power sprint or anaerobic training leading into a race. In that case, do VO2 far enough out to elicit the gains, then do FTP training and work on TTE to maximize the endurance going in.

Many of the workouts are far too complex, planned at arbitrary % of FTP, and only train VO2max in that why are working in a power zone named “VO2max” for some reason. A lot of their “VO2max” workouts don’t get you working anywhere near it for any meaningful amount of time.

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I believe Dr. Seiler’s study showed that periodization from long (16 min) to short (4 min) intervals and vice versa were statistically similar, while randomly assigned durations were slightly less effective.

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Hey there! Glad to see some great discussion going on in this thread!

Nice work completing your A event! 110 miles with 14,500ft of climbing – and solo!! :exploding_head: :muscle:

From your description of your event and your experience with the Climbing RR Plan, I do think it sounds like the Gran Fondo/Century plan would be a solid choice for future events like this one. Apologies from our end since you got the original recommendation to do Climbing RR from us at TR.

As other athletes have commented here, the main difference between our Climbing RR and Gran Fondo plans is that the Climbing RR plan includes VO2 workouts and sessions with shorter bursts of power to mimick attacking/reacting to attacks in a mass-start race, while the Gran Fondo plan focuses more on long, sustained power that you’ll have to produce for big rides with long climbs (like the route you just completed).

The good news is that the VO2 work wasn’t a waste of time! Training zones aren’t separate – each one blends into the other. The VO2 work you did was probably helpful in “raising” your Threshold power from above. This type of work can still be useful, even if you’re training for longer sustained efforts.

As for your question regarding returning to training, I think it would be a good idea to start out with the recovery week you have up on your TR Calendar at the moment. Many athletes take 1-2 weeks off after an A event to reset and freshen up for the next cycle of training. Since you just had a week off the bike with a road trip, I think it sounds like taking a week to ease back into riding would be a good call to get the legs moving after a lot of time spent traveling.

If you feel like you’re already pretty fresh after some time off, though, you can always use Workout Alternates to sub in a session with some harder efforts to gauge how your legs are doing.

Hope this helps! Feel free to let me or TR Support know if you have any other questions.

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I’m no coach… but honestly I’d be pretty happy with your program if I was you, although maybe I’d do the Gran Fondo instead of climbing. But you’re adding lower intensity riding to the TR plan, hard to fault overall.

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vo2 work is probably almost never a waste of time, but it’s possible the vo2 workouts you were doing weren’t effective either. unfortunately in my time using TR, doing vo2 work in adaptive training gave me a lot of 1min or similarly short “vo2 power” efforts that ultimately didn’t do much to move the needle. only recently with a focus on vo2 blocks where I progressed doing 6x3, 5x4 and 4x5 vo2 workouts with erg off and just riding as hard as i could for those periods did I bust through an ftp plateau and have gained 10w since Dec

So vo2 work does benefit you even if you’re not specifically riding that hard, you just have to do it right

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Vo2Max does not raise FTP. I have raised my Vo2Max by 20 percent with no change at all in FTP.