Understanding my climbing performance

Lots of good advice here - particularly around the time spent climbing

However, I think the cause is more likely that it is relatively hard to tell the difference between riders w/kg on flats, even when going hard enough that there isn’t talking in the group (this is how you’ve determined they’re riding hard on the flatter sections). These other riders could easily be 0.5 to 1 w/kg higher than you while taking what feels like equal turns in a paceline and its only when the road turns upward that the difference becomes apparent.

You can use everesting.cc with your usual climbs to estimate how much faster you would be with 5kg less. You probably would need about 15w less around ftp for the same speed at 6-8%.
You could also have a flatter power curve, more like a time trialist. Mine is very flat which makes it very difficult for me to react to any acceleration. In that case you could work on your FRC/VLAMAX.

There are so many variables here, but let me assume you are one of the heavier riders in the bunch. Further, let me assume that you can hang with them just fine on the flats.

From that you can deduce a few things:

  • Your riding buddies are likely >4.0 W/kg, perhaps 4.5 W/kg if they can keep up with you on the flats.
  • Climbing will likely remain a relative weakness, unless you leapfrog your riding buddies in terms of fitness. But so what? You are just not a climber. Adjust your expectations.
  • Make sure you have the right gearing! While you write you are doing 300 W at 90 rpm, I am not sure whether this is representative. If you climb at 81 kg, you will likely need easier gears than you have now.
  • You can, of course, improve your pedaling technique when climbing. A few things change here, and two factors are especially important: (1) Your wheels will have a lower moment of inertia and thus, your power application needs to be more even throughout the pedal stroke. And (2) your self-selected cadence will likely go down. So practice pedaling at various rpm. IMHO you should be comfortable at 60 rpm on the low side.
  • You can try an oval chainring. This will mostly change the feel, but could help smoothen your pedal stroke. Have a look at Rotor’s chainrings and Q rings.
  • Hone your strengths. At 81 kg I assume you can put out at least as much power as your riding buddies in absolute terms. Try to get better at efforts that are suited to your physiology.
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Thanks all! Lots of good advice and thinking!

It looks like the outcome is:

  1. ride more uphill to get better adjusted to the feeling and associated pedalling technique
  2. Increase watts (as always :sweat_smile:)
  3. accept weaknesses :poop:

Making the strava comparison to others with a power meter and comparable weight it doesn’t look like I’m doing something wrong, but effectively need more watts. I’m looking to improve from 4 w/kg for 5min to almost 5 w/kg for 5min :hot_face:.

Obviously that’s going to take some time, but in terms of TR application I’ll be making some adjustments:

  1. from doing some intervals in a lower cadence (80-85 vs 95-100) → do at least a couple of intervals in the inner ring and add very low cadence work (more like 60-70).
  2. adjust the training plan/select alternates to work towards longer VO2max blocks. I find the current AI plan doesn’t necessarily do that. It works from 30sec to 1:30 intervals and then starts upping the intensity rather than the length

Sample of one, but I used to climb at 90 rpm. Dropping to a lower cadence 65/70 rpm really helped. I beat previous prs this way.

It sends to switch the load more toward muscular endurance instead of the aerobic system and I feel less tired at the top.

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Same thing happens to me, and here is what I have observed:

  1. This mostly happens when I ride with people who do not use power meters.
    I ride with a few people who are roughly the same size, maybe a little lighter, in some cases they are even bigger. They absolutely hammer it on any slight incline. I was riding with someone recently who was hammering it at 400+ watts trying to maintain their speed up a false flat. They have no idea how hard they are going though.

  2. The same people are also people who chase average speed or strava segments
    Because they do not have a power meter and they are just trying to go as fast as possible, they try to maintain their speed rather than power. This means hammering it up slight inclines at 400 watts. drives me nuts, to be honest.

  3. This never happened to me before I started doing TR more regularly.
    Before I used TR I did the same thing as the people I am discussing above. As such, my legs were better conditioned to hammer it up hills. My overall fitness was worse though. I was basically really good at going hard up hills and then recovering going down them. This made threshold intervals quite the shock for me. I also carry more fatigue in my legs from structured training than them. Often times they will be going out on fresh legs when I am going out the day after a vo2 session.

Here is what matters to me though: I always beat them in races.

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At your current weight you’ll be looking at an FTP of around 324 watts (4W/KG). Then if your VO2 max is at 120% of FTP there’s your 5W/KG for 5 mins.

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I’m doing hill work at low cadence big gear at moment, Lower than your cadence, I’m at 40-60 rpm. I too have set a PB on the hill I use for the reps. Plus maximum heart rate a good 10 bpm below the previous record I set at my usual cadence. Like you say it shifts it from cardio to more strength endurance. Well worth doing to get faster up hills and to give balance between muscular and cardio development.

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And I up my cadence going up hill as cardio is my strength. No idea what is better I can only comment compared to those I ride with hills are a lot easier for me then my ride mates. I am a small rider

Yes on 1. Don’t pressure yourself on 2. But importantly, I’d add

  1. Be aware of your strengths.

In this post you zoom in your weaknesses, which is fair. But don’t shortchange your strengths. On the downhills you have a natural advantage, because you are heavier. On the flats you should be at least equal from what you write. So don’t forget about your strengths :slight_smile:

  1. I’d go even further: 70 rpm should be doable without discomfort. There are plenty of climbs that I ride where I need to go to 60–70 rpm when I want to stay in a specific power zone. I recommend doing these exercises during endurance workouts where the workload is lower and you don’t burden your joints as much.
  2. Here I would caution you. Instead of choosing alternates, think about it long-term. How about picking a plan that emphasizes short power, e. g. the crit plan. It will make your power tower higher, but leave a thinner base. The year after you can then broaden the base of the higher tower with e. g. the climbing road race plan.

I don’t think there is a clear answer. But some systems of your body can tire more quickly than others, and if you practice being comfortable in a wide range of cadences, you can shift the burden from one to the other.

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Lighter people get to double dip thanks to the exponential decrease in TTE as you exceed threshold.

Let’s say your full gas effort puts you at 115% FTP for 5 minutes.

The lighter guy may have a lower FTP, but even a 5kg difference makes it so he may only need to hold 108-110% of FTP to match your pace up a climb.

This is where he gets to double dip. If he hits the climb at 120-125%, he may not last 5 minutes, but he’ll last long enough to get up the climb. He gets to go faster for the same amount of raw watts, AND his effort doesn’t have to last as long, and that’s how he smokes you by 45 seconds.

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You analysis is right, although on a ride that’s more likely to be relevant than in a race. On group rides I reckon you don’t want to be a dick and “punish” the climbers on the flats. Whereas on climbs it is much more natural to let everyone go at their own pace.

In a race, though, you just have to adjust your strategy as a non-climber. Sag climbing and other strategies can at the very least even the playing field. Flatter courses favor riders with higher absolute power.

I’ve found I climb much better in the big ring. Obviously, that only works up to a certain gradient, but see if you can just stomb it up a short hill in the big ring. For a while, I tried the spinning in the small ring tactic, but it doesn’t work for well for me.

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Sometimes you just run out of gears, say on a 30% grade. Then you are forced into the lower cadence or getting off and walking. I’ve certainly found that training sessions at low cadence in a big gear helps with this. My legs are no longer getting trashed when I have a few steep hills to tackle during a long ride.

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This is a point I was trying to make, only made much better. My Saturday club spin is invariably the day after the final key workout of the TR week. So this week, if I get out, it’ll be the day after over unders from General Build, following 2 VO2 max workouts. Most of the rest of the group were maybe out twice during the week - Tuesday for a spin, and Thursday for the (handicapped) club race.

IMO muscle pattern recruitment is central. Without spending any time climbing I’d wager that 02 consumption is higher at the same weight, power and cadence compared to riding on flat ground.

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Speak for yourself… :crazy_face: :crazy_face:

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I think I have to agree with @Power13 here. Why should we not be allowed to punish them on the flats if they are allowed to do the same to us on the uphills? :see_no_evil: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

In our group, yes. We’re usually only 6-10 people and not pulling at the front is not done. That said, I do feel I naturally gravitate towards pulling a bit hard and longer at the front on the flats, and let the better climbers do the work when going uphill.

Yeah, on group rides, yes. But then again, on group rides etiquette is that you wait at the top of the hill or significant waypoints. (In mountain biking culture this is even stronger, I never felt pressured offroad to be faster.)