Plenty of examples of female athletes getting cancelled, threatened, harassed etc when they refuse to participate with male athletes or simply call a spade a spade. We’re getting to the stages where the majority of people winning in women’s sports will actually be men. It’s mind boggling that sports are not sex based.
I’m not saying that Christians are or were driving the term, simply that they were happy to start using it when it began to be more popularised by the likes of Money and co, mainly because they were unnecessary awkward about the word ‘sex’, which is rather immature really.
My point on this is that simply is no such thing as ‘gender’ but rather ‘sex’. The latter is routed in genetics, biology, science, reality etc. It’s an incredibly small percentage of people who don’t fit the XX / XY model but even then, they usually manifest as one or the other in terms of endocrine profile, reproduction etc.
Sports, especially cycling, should stick to sex based categorisations and not allow men to compete against women and essentially cheat their way to the top, as we’ve seen happen.
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Which is what makes it unsuitable to use as a means to separate people into categories for sport IMHO.
If sporting bodies do want to continue the separation into two categories then they should agree on a defining triat that does fit people into two neat boxes.
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I couldn’t disagree more with anything you said…the idea that “sex” or “gender” has to fit neatly into two defined boxes is, IMO, myopic and comes from a society that is only comfortable with what they have known.
It is hard and uncomfortable to break out of those societal norms and requires us to challenge our belief systems.
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I definitely sense this and it makes me hesitate to wade into this discussion. A few months ago, I was having a friendly discussion with a friend of mine who is part of the LBGTQ+ community. When I expressed my belief that the biological factors of a male body (bone density, muscle mass, increased lung capacity, etc.) are an inherent physiological advantage for someone who transitions MtF in adulthood, he compared it to inherent advantages of someone like Katie Ledecky, who dominates her sport. I didn’t know how to respond to this without saying “But Katie is a XX female” and although I don’t think it’s that black and white, I felt like if we talked about it further, it could damage our friendship. We moved on to other topics.
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I am about an hour away from Edmonton AB. On the weekend they are having the PTO triathlon. I think I read they had an open class for trans athletes. I cant find it now though. Good to make it more inclusive but I don’t know how competitive that class would be. It is better than nothing.
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Yes. And this stuff is so dangerous, that we can’t have factual discussions about these things because people get so emotionally attached to an idea that any challenge to this idea is seen as an attack.
How can we come up with rational solutions if we can’t even have discussions without accusing people of hate?
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This is the same conversation I’ve had with women I ride with. Everyone is a bit different, so how does one classify an outlier in any sport cis or trans? Just on biology alone an MtF is more likely to skew to be an outlier, far more than cis will.
Ultimately it’s my opinion that everyone should get to compete. How the heck that gets sorted out and be “fair”/ “equal opportunity” is being a huge bugger of a problem.
Yeah, I am all for inclusivity in sport. But I have definitely hesitated in the past to voice any objections or questions because many times, the response is emotionally charged vs. rational discussion. I definitely want a trans kid to be able to play sports in HS where they can learn teamwork, discipline, hard work, emotional ups and downs, etc. that will help them become a better adult. I just don’t know how this translates in the adult spectrum. In the amateur realm, I don’t know if it really matters. In the professional realm, that’s what these organizing bodies are trying to figure out.
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An excellent perspective… MONEY changes everything!!!
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Yes, it might mean young adults deciding not to transition because of the love of their sport etc.
I was asked if I minded a trans woman competing at a local race and I was fine with it- grass roots inclusivity. But for pro/semi pros, that’s entirely different. I can’t see any fair option other than a separate category.
We just have to keep the discussion going on in society, although I too have ended discussions rather than let it effect relationships.
Edit: I’m not saying trans women should be able to compete in the women’s field in all amateur racing. Just that I personally was fine with it in that instance, as it was a grass roots race.
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It feels like you’re either not reading what I’m saying properly or you’re trying to intentionally misrepresent what I’m saying.
I’m not saying that ‘gender’ has to fit into two defined boxes as I’m saying that ‘gender’ doesn’t exist.
With regard to ‘sex’, I specifically acknowledged that there are people who aren’t XX / XY in an incredibly small percentage of cases. The reality is though that the vast majority of people, something like 99.97% of human beings, are strictly female (XX chromosomes) or strictly male (XY chromosomes).
I do not in the slightest care about another person’s subjective identity when it comes to this, what matters is objective reality. When it comes to sports, it should be a simple case of asking having sex segregated sports that are based on DNA. Doing so would help protect women (real ones) from being at a competitive disadvantage to biological men. The rate as which we’re going I can’t help but wonder if there will be any sports where actual women will win in the future.
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I agree about XX and XY biology and I think that’s where the line needs to be drawn in the sporting context.
However, gender matters to people who have been through so much to feel comfortable in their own skin. I think in having these discussions society needs to consider what language to use to connect with trans women with compassion. If we use triggering language which highlights their lack of inclusion, we will fuel the conflict.
It’s about being assertive. This is where we draw the line of fairness. We will not be bullied into shifting that boundary. With that said, how can we best understand and support you?
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The word ‘gender’ has been around awhile but its original meaning was applied in an objective as opposed to a subjective sense. When people got prudish about the word ‘sex’ they sought to replace it with ‘gender’. Later, it was largely the morally bankrupt & degenerate John Money who popularised the modern concept of ‘gender’, so it hasn’t really been around a very long time, just the word has but with the meaning being corrupted.
Sex based sports, specifically “mens’ sports” & “womens’ sports” were specifically created to be based upon the sex of the participants, not their identity which may or may not conform to biological reality. Just because a man (XY) believes in his own head that he is a woman (XX) it doesn’t make him so and he shouldn’t be allowed to compete against women because it gives him an unfair advantage and can be potentially dangerous for women, especially in contact sports like football, rugby & especially MMA.
It’s very easy to categorise what a woman:
- Is a human female: characterised by an XX chromosome pairing;
- Is an adult: which is typically considered at being around 16 years old with some jurisdictions being 15 and others 18.
The overwhelming vast majority of these so called ‘trans’ athletes are men based upon an XY pairing. So it really is clear cut, keep them out of womens’ sports entirely and make them either compete with their fellow man or compete in their own ‘trans’ category. It’s the fairest solution for all.
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It is a slippery sloap. At one time we had somewhat gender specific jobs with physical qualifications.
For example a firefighter had yo be x tall, x strong and be able to do x. Many men could not meet those requirements and almost no women could. These requirements were deemed disciminatory and sexist. Society adapted, reduced the requirements and more women could succefully pass the tests as well as more men. Was that a good thing??? ???
I believe this is another case of society adapting although I dont know how.
I do know one thing. As a male in sports it is not my decision. It should be up to women in sports deciding with women trans athletes. Men deciding will just f it up.
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It isn’t a slippery slope though, it’s making decisions based upon objective reality underpinned by genetics, biology etc.
Re firefighter requirements & other requirements like it, such as Marine fitness tests etc, it’s more about discernment than discrimination. People need to be of a certain physical stature & strength to carry the equipment, if a person, male or female can’t meet those requirements, then they shouldn’t do the job. Lowering standards simply jeopardises the position and puts others at risk.
Unfortunately, when women speaking out against men entering womens’ sports, women risk being cancelled, fired, fined & being subject to abuse and threats of physical violence. So many women feel like they can’t speak out for this reason so simply stay quiet to protect themselves. There’s nothing wrong with men speaking up to support women and reserve and protect their sport for women.
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Women athletes having a separate category from men, is about creating a sporting environment for women in which they can compete with each other.
Women do not need your permission to have that category.
It has nothing to do with racism.
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Thank you.
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It isn’t sexist though to have standards. Being a firefighter, a soldier etc, isn’t about providing opportunities for men, women or whatever, it’s about protecting the lives of other people. Lowering standards around physical strength, capacity etc, ultimately risks hurting those, that the jobs are supposed to be protecting.
The above topic is really separate from the whole “trans” discussion we’re having. Having sports that are sex based is not unfair to anyone but rather provides fairness all round. The only useful addition I can see is having a ‘trans’ category for men who think they’re women, this way they can avoid being identified as men but we can also keep them away from actual women who they have an advantage over.
The reality is that no one can ‘transition’, no man can become a woman. They can butcher their bodies, pump themselves full of hormones, they’re still men because they have a Y chromosome. ‘Transitioning’ doesn’t give them a woman’s bone structure and density, it doesn’t give them a woman’s tendon and ligament tissues nor does it change the brain structure or chemistry wired for competition, aggression etc.
With regard to men in women’s MMA, unfortunately there have been women seriously injured by these men. I remember one lady who ended up with a shattered orbital socket, something completely unheard of in women’s MMA prior to the inclusion of men. What happens if these women refuse to fight men? As I pointed out, they risk being fired, fined, cancelled, harassed etc.
Men in women’s MMA is completely different to women in combat roles. As I understand it, the vast majority of women on front lines are not involved in direct combat but rather provide support: medical; mechanical; comms etc. Even if they were in direct combat, they’ve usually got air support in the form of drones and fighter jets, they’re surrounded by male soldiers and they’re killing from a distance. This is completely different to putting a man in a cage with a woman.
None of this has to be ‘extremely confusing’, the simple solution is to have sex segregated sports based upon DNA.
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Women having their own category to compete in has nothing to do with trans rights.
I too hope that things can be figured out in a way which allows trans athletes to compete in a way which fulfills them, but is not detrimental to other categories. If I can find a way to support them in that I will.
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