You need vastly lower gearing for long climbs on gravel, the rolling resistance to overcome is a huge loss of power.
By the sounds of it, hitting a plateau is the least of the OP’s concerns - it’s getting up the hill to the plateau in the first place that’s the issue. 
1 Like
I would say at 245w ftp and 92kg, losing weight is helpful but it’s not going to budge the needle as much as increasing power. I would imagine that bigger percentage gains will come from pushing up that low ftp. Also, OP is 41 (not old). You all seem to be talking like I’m suggesting OP focus on their sprint. I’m saying develop your engine to push higher watts for 5-20 mins. You’re at a very undeveloped state that you’re going to get considerable gains doing just about any type of training. I wouldn’t suggest noodling around for hours on end at endurance pace with your A race as an 8 hour ride. I also wouldn’t suggest targeting your training around an ultra endurance event if you’re discouraged about riding slow. Build your shorter term power to become a strong cyclist.
I’ve never really heard someone say that I went out easy riding for so long that I became fast.
Take it from someone who I fast. Build your 5-20min power, build your repeatability, then all of your numbers will rise for all durations. ‘Completing’ a big ride like the one you bonked on is mostly a nutrition thing. Your goal should be making the 8 hour ride a 6 hour ride, not fueling properly for a 8 hour ride.
For those of your baffled at this advice, recall tour de France champions Bradley Wiggins and Geraint Thomas. Former track cycling athletes (powerful short term power) that came to the road and stretched the endurance. Hmm, there might be something there 
Aside from all of the advice above, I’ll just add what I’ve seen huge improvement from that has yet to be mentioned. You have 6 months until your next big gravel event and this would leave plenty of time, as for me it took about 3-4 months.
On top of following a TR plan as a loose guide, I’d pay attention to your CTL and building that up towards next April. CTL is not everything, but IMHO it’s overlooked in TR plans. With TR my CTL stayed generally in the mid 70s when I was my fittest. I was competitive in shorter races (90 minutes) but struggled in anything much over that.
Once I started focusing on raising my CTL from mid 70s to near and over 100, everything changed. I went from finishing mid pack in gravel races to steadily improving, literally a little better each succeeding race (from 30th, 19th, 13th, and eventually a podium 3rd place). This has happened with basically the same FTP +/- a handful of watts all race season. However, my ability to express that FTP changed immensely (muscle endurance/fatigue resistance).
You can track this for free using “intervals.icu”. Granted, this means adding volume (z2 rides) to raise CTL, but it’s doable. I’ve felt better and less burnt out doing almost twice the volume now, then when I strictly followed TR plans. The added benefit is that your weight will naturally decrease as long as you eat decent.
I’d look at whatever your highest CTL was this season and look to build on that 10-20 point for next year. My CTL build was a bit extreme as I was testing my breaking point, however with a more realistic approach I think you could find big improvements.
BTW, I’m 47/m, cycling 6 years, 5 with TR, 175 lbs (started around 190 lbs), about ~4.0 w/k now.
5 Likes
I don’t think anyone is arguing that OP shouldn’t do hard workouts or try to raise their FTP. The issue is this…
This is just bad advice. Plenty of people have gotten faster by doing 2-3 hard workouts per week (maybe less in base too) and filling the rest of their training time with Z2. There’s no reason whatsoever to cap a Z2 ride at 90 mins just because you’re at a certain w/kg.
1 Like
There is a trade off between quality and quantity. That is why I suggest capping a ride at 90mins tops. Sure, have one long ride per week or so that builds progressively, but the focus is on development of power, not duration. Duration is easy to build (it’s largely a matter of nutrition when riding at a relatively easy intensity), power is hard. You body can only absorb so much training and adapt to grow stronger. You need to choose a focus. Over seasons, implement progressive overload (where you raise both) but most people do that wrong and just overtrain with poor results in practice (ask any coach that makes their money from coaching people who do or have done this)
Ok. Maybe we could ask @empiricalcycling or @brendanhousler if they would cap their < 3w/kg athlete’s Z2 rides to 90 mins if they could otherwise absorb their training load.
@kurt.braeckel is a coach and he made his views pretty clear.
There is no reason a long Z2 ride is not quality training.
4 Likes
capping anything to 90mins is asinine advice. volume is king
3 Likes
If you cannot accept a differing point of view, then move on. If you read all of my posts on this thread, you would have better context. I believe that I gave solid advice, you seem to disagree. It’s not personal. I don’t care if multiple people with personal coach businesses are all saying the same thing. It doesn’t make things ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. There are many successful approaches. I fully understand some people cannot palate such direct answers, but I’m a straight shooter and I stand by my viewpoint.
1 Like
you’ve literally contradicted yourself, so do you or don’t you care what common coaching wisdom is?
2 Likes
This is not a contradiction. Google that word to help yourself understand better.
I was saying that many people seek out a personal coach or training plan after burning out from doing ‘too much, too fast, too soon’. However, just because some coaches are saying training style A is better than training style B, I hold my position and stand by training style B. I don’t care how many people are promoting it
The point that you directly said was: for riders with FTP below 3W/kg, they should cap rides at 90 min and focus on power generation at shorter durations (e.g. 20min).
I summarily disagree with the suggestion that you cap duration below a certain arbitrary W/kg. That is what I have taken umbrage with.
You then suggested this is how reverse periodization works - that is not factually correct.
There is a lot of physiological misconception implied in this post. You do not need to choose one focus between volume and intensity. You need to create a balance. This is the biggest issue with your thinking: you seem to force a choice between one or the other. My response is: Why not both?
Your answer is: too many people screw that up and overtrain. Yep. Lots of people do that, but instead of arbitrarily capping ride duration or other similar ideas to prevent them from overtraining, how about we educate them and guide them so they can train more effectively?
Finally, I can point to hundreds of people who did Trainer Road low and mid-volume plans that trained 90 min or less almost exclusively who plateaued and overloaded themselves (largely due to improper setting of FTP and TOO MUCH interval work). There’s just way, way more nuance involved here than you’re letting on. The idea that 90 minutes is some limit below which you cannot overload/overtrain is just again factually incorrect.
7 Likes
Don’t argue with Sir Paul…
2 Likes
@kurt.braeckel i don’t think you are grasping the concept of a ‘trade off’. If I have $10 and plan to spend it all on apples or oranges, then I am trading off between apples for oranges.
If I have an energy budget to spend on training that my body can meaningfully absorb, then I am trading off between high intensity and low intensity. High intensity has a higher ‘price’ and vice versa. Yes, I need to ‘balance my budget’ because I only have as much to spend in this moment as my body can meaningfully absorb. So if I want to focus on long durations, I tone down the intensity. If I want to focus on absorbing intense sessions, I tone down the volume. If you raise both, you go into debt (over training), which can only last so long until your bills come due.
You keep saying you can raise both, which you can over long durations if you absorb training properly and grow your budget (progressive overload), but this is only possible if you are absorbing your training in the moment (rather than accumulating debts you cannot pay).
If you live in a world where the principles of scarcity (economics) doesn’t apply, please invite me!
Assuming we’re talking about men only here… This presumes that everyone who’s “sufficiently” trained on 90min rides gets over 3w/kg, which is absolutely not the case. And that 90min sessions are enough to get to 3w/kg for everyone, which is also not the case.
This is exactly what happens if you’re doing your endurance rides too hard.
6 Likes
Sky also stretched the limits of legality. TUEs, Jiffy bags, cortico steroids and whatever else they could get away with.
KW, I’m not sure why you keep doubling down on this line of thinking. Cap rides at 90 minutes to accomplish and 8-10+ hour ride?
He’s trying to ride 120 miles on gravel. Even with better fitness and less weight, the neck pain, foot pain, back pain, and butt pain would probably get him.
He’s would have to do a bunch of 5+ hour rides at minimum to prepare for such an epic event. He also needs to practice fueling.
4 Likes
I don’t keep saying “raise both”. I keep saying “do both”.
You can focus intensity on raising, e.g. 20-minute power. You can also do long endurance riding. It’s not “either/or”. Create the balance of intensity, duration, and frequency on a micro (workout) and macro (periodization) level. Telling an entry-level (or really any) aspiring ultra athlete to spend months riding no more than 90 minutes so they can focus on intensity is foolish.
4 Likes
I spent a couple years doing exactly what you’re arguing for (heavily structured workouts focused on 20 minute or so power with a limit of 90 minute max workouts, aka SSBMV) and my FTP hit a brick wall at 300 each time. My fitness also didn’t feel durable and my legs just ran out of gas after 3 hours.
I increased my volume this year by about 50% and hit a 319 FTP in late July and my 2023 numbers from various rides now sit in the top three spots on my TrainingPeaks high numbers across the entire spectrum. Life intervened this year, but I’m confident I can smash that next year using what I learned this year (assuming my schedule doesn’t get blown up again). And my fitness was way more durable due to the volume, as well. My experience moving from SSBMV to higher volume with intense rides involved literally not tradeoffs: I was fitter, faster, and had way more fun.
4 Likes
3 Likes
Maybe doubling down because a fat boy (me) called him on throwing shade at 90kg riders under 3W/kg. Maybe he was having a bad day and didn’t want to kick the dog? Who knows why people say rude things and then double down on defending it. I’m done feeding the troll, enough has been said.
6 Likes