Away from the dogma dominating the thread, this is actually the one thing that I actually think might be bad about erg mode. I used the exact same phrase (“push through”) in conversation with a coach, and he said:
“Your comment about push through is exactly why I wouldn’t use [erg mode]. If you have to generate the load and you do not have a perfect day you will likely back off a bit…if you use erg mode and push through that is a mistake.”
i.e. In hard workouts, erg mode potentially encourages you to ignore what your body is telling you, and just do whatever numbers the workout suggests. It’s an interesting notion.
(On the other hand, I just did an easy ride (Pettit -1), and you can bet your expensive hat that I stuck it on erg mode and just pedalled away while concentrating on YouTube.)
Using that coach’s argument makes sense, but I would also argue that pushing through tough intervals indoors can help build stronger fitness that will translate to better power outside anyway, even if you don’t replicate the same thing outside. After all if we simply quit when we think we are done and don’t push through, we may be missing out on fitness. On the other hand, we can also push too far and hurt ourselves, but I feel like that is far less likely.
My understanding is that in ERG mode we can’t really do that. If I start putting more pressure on the pedals—to increase my power—ERG mode takes over and pulls me back, no? Likewise, if I try to slow down a touch, ERG mode accounts for the drop in cadence and raises resistance to keep me on the power target, no?
I will also say that when we are training sometimes we want to ride above the prescribed wattage target or even maybe a few percent below for a micro-recovery. A good example of this is doing VO2 repeats. Knowing that VO2max is somewhere between 106-120%, we have some wiggle room, and don’t necessarily always need to nail an exact percentage.
If I’m faced with 6 2-minute VO2 max intervals @ 120% I might actually want to do the first two at 115% if I find that holding 120% is difficult. How do I do this naturally in ERG mode? I can’t simply drop a little cadence or shift a gear, the trainer will force me to maintain x-wattage @ 120%. I have to press a button on a screen, try doing that when you’re riding at 120% of FTP and maintaining your wattage. As I understand it, I don’t really have any options other than muscling out the interval, blowing up, or adjusting via the app…which seems really clunky.
However, if I’m in resistance mode I have two options, drop my cadence a touch or shift. Just like I would out on the road, more or less. I think a very steep climb where you are hanging on is an exception.
I also think a benefit of resistance mode is that I’m more connected to the experience in that I can’t auto-pilot like I could in ERG mode. I have to really focus on cadence and output to maintain my wattage goal…this doesn’t seem to be entirely true with ERG mode.
I don’t know, just my two cents. Again, no lab data.
My understanding is that in ERG mode we can’t really do that. If I start putting more pressure on the pedals—to increase my power—ERG mode takes over and pulls me back, no?
It does but you are not necessarily riding at the exact watts that ERG mode has set for you. My rides in ERG mode show the power fluctuations so the interval may say 250 watts but my output over the interval can still vary on that interval. I can end up at any number lower or can end up putting out 255 watts say on that interval. It doesnt mean I will be at 250.
If I’m faced with 6 2-minute VO2 max intervals @ 120% I might actually want to do the first two at 115% if I find that holding 120% is difficult. How do I do this naturally in ERG mode?
Adjust the intensity. Takes a second while you ride…pick what you want the output to be.
I think the ERG mode is bad view just misses the point that we use ERG mode as a means of reaching our goal. It will get us there. I dont see that it has had a negative impact on my n=1 experience.
Kinda. The most important aspect to recognize with ERG is that is is a REACTIVE system, not proactive. That means is reacts to the input from the rider and adjusts to reach the desired target.
That means it has to see a change first,
then it has to implement the desired correction.
In ERG mode, with a rider changing cadence faster or slower, there is a massive variable, TIME…
That is the time it takes the app/trainer to see a deviation,
and the time to adjust to the reach the desired power target again.
When you speed up cadence, there is an immediate increase in power, because the ERG can’t predict this change.
This means the resistance unit must then reduce it’s braking force, in an effort to balance the equation and get the desired power target.
Easy in essence, but that can take a second or two in some cases. It depends highly on how much and how fast the rider changes cadence.
The result are the “peaks” that we see in ERG workouts for otherwise steady work.
Note that there is a range of variation from around 184w to 212w, and my varied around 4 rpm max/min.
The main take away, even in a low power, super steady effort, there is nearly constant power variation. As Nate mentioned, there are riders capable of even tighter power range control in resistance. It is never some glassy smooth power delivery.
The only time that even appears to be the case is with Wahoo’s terrible “ERG Mode Power Smoothing” Even that, is only how it shows the power. The reality is that there are ALWAYS power variations in ERG mode.
Those power variations are not unlike the simple variations we see in Resistance mode.
The desire to adjust the power target is best addressed using the Workout Intensity adjustment, when using ERG mode. It raises or lowers the power targets in the entire workout dynamically, and can be done at any time.
I use it all the time for VO2 workouts because I know my values are often below the 120% default in many TR workouts.
Point being that Resistance is not the only way to address in-workout adjustments to meet whatever goals the rider may have.
That’s the problem, you were working from assumptions rather than asking people who know and have used ERG as well as related tools to make the most of them.
Connection seems mistake to me. In the simplest form, what you have is a “requirement” to pay attention more than ERG mode.
Great in concept, but how many of us have been in a Resistance workout and lost focus a bit with our distraction, a good movie or pumping song? (I know I have). Look down and you are way over or under your target.
Having a requirement to pay attention, and actually doing it for the entire workout, are two different things. One does not necessarily lead to the other.
No. Nothing pulls you back. The load drops slightly, allowing you to increase the cadence. But you actually have to increase power before the trainer responds. So for small deviations in cadence for short durations, the power/cadence slope is exactly the same as in resistance mode.
When did I say that? I riled a bunch of you up with a bold statement. Admittedly one that isn’t backed with a bunch of experience—but more a postulation for discussion. Is that not ok? Maybe it’s rubbish. Shrug. I didn’t realize this topic had been literally beaten to death and already brought up by a former doper.
It’s like when you’re at a coffee stop with your boys and someone throws out a thought or idea. Do you jump on him or do you engage in a respectful discourse? Certainly what hasn’t happened here…a lot of armchair coaches quickly telling me why my hypothesis is garbage…simply because I don’t have any evidence. If I remember correctly, my OP was fairly light hearted and not a fact-based statement. Just a thought.
It was an FYI and an opportunity to read the many posts and angles already well discussed.
Again, so much of that depends on the approach taken.
To me, yours appeared more confrontational than open minded and asking a legit question with the intent of learning.
Again, not how I see it.
I and others have asked for clarification on the rationale at play here, beyond the data. I went to great lengths and time to write several replies with real questions to learn your points, and offer my thoughts on them. (1, 2, 3, 4)
Yeah, not really.
Critical statements in my eyes and the “Let me have it” ending strongly implies that you expected to ruffle some feathers.
If you really want to do more than cause a ruckus, you can look to the substantive comments from me and others, to learn how ERG works, the reasons some of us like using it, and why parts of it are often misunderstood.
These new entries, along with so many of the others give a good picture of what ERG mode is, the good and the bad.
Right, and that’s the reason I see more similarities between the modes and overall results than differences. ERG is not the “perfect” thing that removes the rider from the responsibility of making and holding power, that some make it out to be.
There are notable and substantive differences in how they both work, but when each is understood and used properly, the end results are likely hard to tell apart.
I do think that ERG has some nice advantages and use them as such in my training. But I know it’s not perfect and also employ Resistance mode in some TR workouts not to mention doing some rides and workouts in the open Zwift world.
As with so much of life and training, there is likely not one “perfect” solution for anything. People, equipment, and situations all lead to variation and there is a likely a good reason to employ a bit of everything in a well balanced training plan.
ERG vs Resistance is no different. People can choose either one or any combination of both. In a perfect world, I think they should review the options (pros / cons) and implement as desired.
Being critical of other’s choices, especially without a proper understanding of the full picture is less than ideal, IMHO.
I just did Whitface -1 in erg and totally agree. FWIW I reckon I’m smoother in resistance than erg, but doing it in erg means I can’t be a sook and bail out halfway through a set.
exactly what I like about erg and vo2 work. That and it forces me to go easy during recovery intervals. On the other hand I turn off erg mode to do max efforts inside. Erg is just a tool, it is not going to make you slower.
I know I am gonna regret wading into this, but I see a huge false corollary that needs to be addressed.
ERG workouts are not designed to mimic real world racing / riding scenarios, they are (as others noted) designed to build a specific physiological response (I.e. push a certain number of watts for a certain period of time).
By their nature, interval workouts (regardless of the sport) are about the work being performed. When marathoners do track workouts, are they trying to replicate race scenarios, or are they using a controlled area to focus on the work? But literally no one would say that track workouts are not a vital part of runner’s training program.
So the idea that riding in Resistance mode is superior because you can surge at the end of an interval to simulate going over the top of a climb or other IRL scenarios completely misrepresents what interval work in ERG mode is about.
