Thanks for the comments and thoughts. I truly appreciate it!
My true ‘normal’ is cramped in our back entry and not picture conducive, so I recreated it outside where there is more light/better camera capture. Like my normal location, I leveled the bike front to rear wheel roughly with my phone/camera app, which is why there is plywood only under the rear. So I think it’s an artifact of the camera angle (Note that hubs line up with level garage door seam).
I’m beginning to wonder if my bike is too small as well. Can stack height play into hand issues? Or is it more often related to weight distribution, fore/aft balance??? Note that I am at the top of my steerer tube and am thinking a size larger would allow a higher hand position if needed, or at least handle better as the stem would clamp closer to the frame?
My current stem: 100 mm. And my saddle setback is in the realm of 74 mm. I tried the My Velo Fit.com to check my saddle height/fore/aft, and it said my saddle location was good (take 1 it told me to move it forward 2mm. take 2 it said back 3mm).
I realize these questions and nuanced solutions are hard to tease out from just a couple pictures. I really appreciate your thoughts and ideas of things to try. Let me know what else comes to mind! I’d love to get a real fit, but it’s hard with the state of the world.
I would like to do a bike fitting soon, preferably with cameras and such, now I’ve done a little research and it seems that Retül would be the best solution for me.
Well, there are 2 dealers in my area who are certified according to Specialized.
The first dealer told me that they no longer do Retül Bike Fit because cell phone cameras can do it too.
Sounds plausible, but the lady who makes the bike fit can’t even properly answer questions in emails, should I trust someone like that or is Retül really not the benchmark?
I’ve had 2 bike fits…on before COVID that was more old school, and I maybe 6-8 weeks ago that was Retul.
Retul is only as good as the fitter in my experience. Both my fits were on different bikes, but ended up in similar positions and I was happy with both.
Sometimes, a knowledgeable person doing the fit can be better.
I was talking to my fitter and she was saying that the tool is nice, and they though about getting one. But its so expensive for marginal gains, that they opt not to do it. They still get great results (she is well trained and goes to fitting seminars yearly).
In any case. Be ready to spend a few hundreds on a Retul fit.
The problem is, that people using retul might not be fitters. They might know just how to use the machine. There are proper fitters that also use retul, but one need to watch out.
All of the above. Stack height can impact every aspect you listed above.
I’d say you can go to a 120 stem with no issues, but that could also be a big jump for some all at once. Maybe find a cheap 110 stem from your LBS (they usually have “take-offs” knocking around in a bin) and see how that feels. A cheap option that will let you explore stretching out without having to make too big a change too soon.
You can then either lock in on a 100 or move out to a 120 later if you feel like you need more reach.
Thanks for the Info, the lady who will do it without Retül has a good race experience and studied sports sience:
14 years of racing experience * 5 Austrian championship titles * 2nd place WC Downhill * 5th and 8th place Transalp Challenge * indestructible all-round biker in all areas Mag.phil. Study of sports science
But is to stupid to answer my questions in a mail or phone call, she only give me a date for a meeting without an info about the costs.
The other Bike Fitter with Retül i will meet today, i think he is more a mechanical and haven’t experiance in racing, i will see:
trained bicycle technician and certified Body Geometry Fit specialist, sales, purchasing, online shop, offline and online marketing. Preferably on the go with Levo FSR Expert
Bike A(Yeti SB100, Size L): 452 reach, 74.1 seat angle. Reach+current stem: 532. This is the XC bike I currently ride and am happy with the fit. I dont remember the actual saddle to bar measurement.
Looking at add Bike B(Spot Rocker, Size L): 470 reach, 75.5 Seat angle. Comes with 60mm stem, so Reach+stem of: 530.
Assuming the saddle position relative to the BB is set identical between bikes(so pedaling feels the same), my worry is that with the 1.4 degree steeper seat tube on Bike B that its actually decreasing the overall saddle to bar number, thus resulting in a smaller fit. I see random things online stating 1 degree slacker is 1cm longer reach, so is the 1.4 stepper going to be 14mm less reach?
If so I should probably move up to the next size(Bike B Size XL), which is 500 reach, but that would put me roughly 14mm longer than current even accounting for the 14mm less reach from the seat angle. This also adds 17mm of stack.
Other option is either adding 10mm longer stem to the Size L, or a 10mm shorter stem to the size XL(which will still result in higher stack).
In the purest of bike geometry definitions, nothing. That is if you mean “Reach” as the modern term where this is the true horizontal distance from the Bottom Bracket, forward to the center of the Head Tube. As such, seat tube angle is not a factor in any way.
If you mean functional distance between the saddle and handlebars, perhaps called “Rider Reach”, that is more complex.
This first part…
…is in conflict with this second part.
If you set your saddle relative to the BB for Height and Fore-Aft, the seat tube angle is irrelevant.
This assumes that is actually possible to hit the same precise saddle position with both bikes. This may be possible, but may not depending on the actual delta in functional range of saddle position (mainly Fore-Aft) as a result of the seat post offset combined with each bike and related seat tube angle. Easy… right?
Essentially, your first part would get you to the simple comparison of Reach and Stem geo (with some more factors actually, but that is a quick comparison) and give you the rough “Rider Reach” info you are seeming to find.
If the Seat Post Offset and Seat Tube Angle combo prevent a match on saddle relative to BB, then you really need to look into the Effective Top Tube measurement.
This is the “old school” method to size bikes, and I find is still useful even though I look at the frame Reach data a bit more closely. That ETT length can give you some reference to the “Rider Reach” as compared between frames. It lacks the reality of considering Seat Post Offset, and somewhat obscures the Stack, which is potentially important too.
Sadly, this is all quite complex and tough to compare without looking at ALL the numbers to some degree.
Here are a couple of tools I use when comparing bikes.
Pure geo sheets, but you can set options to quickly see the deltas between bikes.
This site is a great comparison of specs and parts, and gives a simple geo overlay that might be useful. Sadly, they lack some data and don’t cover all models.
Yup @mcneese.chad hit the nail on the head. “Reach” is completely independent of STA. So in the case of the two bikes you are comparing, Bike B has a longer reach (by 18mm) than your current bike. If you use the same saddle position (relative to the BB) and the same stem / HB combo, it is impossible for it to result in a “smaller” fit.
I would absolutely NOT recommend going to an XL and would even say you should consider moving down to a Med based on the reach measurements. That said, I don’t ride MTB anymore and am pretty far removed form current off-road geometries, so that the Med suggestion with a large grain of salt.
After a long time of experimenting I’m pretty happy with my bike position now, but I noticed that I lose some stability in my hips when I raise my head.Only noticed that while riding indoors and looking down and occasionally raising the head. When riding outdoors I’m looking up and ahead the road 90% of the time, so I probably didn’t notice it due to the lack of contrast.
What you guys think? Might the be an indoor only issue or should I look into adjusting my saddle some more? Heigth? For-aft?
Are you riding on a rigid trainer or something with motion like a rocker plate?
Even seated, I find that locked in pedaling is “odd” when compared to riding outside with a “free” and unconstrained bike. There is nothing natural or normal about a bike that can’t and does not move underneath us, like most indoor trainers provide with their rigid setup.
Despite claims to the contrary, the bike is constantly moving underneath us when riding outside. I’ve shown people videos of themselves (that I shot from behind them as we rode around) floating and angling around even when rolling straight down the road. Point being that the general assumption most people have about themselves is not correct.
In order to make any more suggestions, you’d need to more clearly define your “loss of stability” and what that really means to your position and motion on the bike inside.
It almost feels like I have to reach for the pedal more when I raise my head and have to focus more to keep my hips stable, which are locked in when I look down.
I had the same idea that the lack of motion might be the issue here, since there shouldn’t really be a change in the length of my leg when I raise my head.
Video shot from side and front angles, with head up/down could be helpful here. As you say, there is not “simple” reason to expect a change from a pure head position change. It may well just be your interpretation of the motion via the different reference of head angle.
That, or there could be a physical issue present due to some muscular or skeletal impact from the difference related to your head position. There is no knowing if that issue is present inside vs absent outside, since it may be harder to diagnose outside from all the freedom and such vs the locked setup inside.
If you have some foam sheet, mats or such, you could try some quick tests with allowing the trainer to move a bit more than the fully locked setup.
Hoping for a second opinion on my TT bike fit. I’ve only adjusted things like saddle height, angle and moving it forward. I’ve also tried at least 3 different saddles.
Why? Rides longer than about 90 minutes, indoors and outdoors, cause excess pressure while sitting which gets to be distracting. During a 70.3 this summer this resulted in lots of short standing intervals for about 45 minutes. I also develop shoulder fatigue, and later back pain, which I can remedy by sitting up with hands on my elbow pads, but any other position (bull horns, lock elbows with straight arms on aerobars, drops where the brake levers are) doesn’t really help. Lastly, after tonight and on very long rides my left knee gets angry (outside, closer to front, maybe but not sure it’s IT band).
Are there any obvious things that stick out on fit that would be easy gets? Long term I will be adding strength training and stretching to help with back/shoulders as I found recently this has helped my running legs a lot.
Looking at other user’s pictures I can already tell I might need to drop my seatpost, lol. But how much??
Here’s a few pictures after completing my workout tonight. The bike is 1-2mm from being level. Speedplay cleats are set as close to midfoot using the stock mounts.
I am a larger rider: 6’3" (190cm) and 205ish(93kg)
In aerobars. Tired, think I’m rolled a little forward on my sit-bones.
Can anybody recommend a very good bike fitter slightly north of London (ideally within an hour to 90 minutes’ drive of Watford)? I’ve got a few ‘tricky’ issues that a local guy hasn’t been able to resolve terribly well.
Im no fit expert but your leg looks fairly stretched to me. Try lowering your saddle a bit (no more than 5mm at a time). Touch wood since a fit lowered mine I have had no knee pain in 9 years.
Also if you are not UCI confined try raising your hands to the preying mantis position. Its made me more comfortable and faster. If you are confined try spacers under the poles/pads to raise them.
Agreed w/ @HLaB re: saddle height. Definitely too high. Also agreed re: raising your hands, but that is going to get you more aero benefit vs. address your fit issues (but could help nonetheless).
I know I’ll sound like a broken record here, but you need to rotate your hips forward. You are sitting almost bolt upright and then basically leaning over to reach your bars. That is probably causing the fatigue and discomfort you are experiencing.
If you rotate your hips forward, you can kinda “fall over” to the bars, which help alleviate some of the stress on your upper body. It will also let you lower your front end and get more aero.
There are other things to address, but first you gotta fix how you sit on the saddle and your hip rotation. To be perfectly honest, you have a position that most people would have by fitting aero bars on a road bike.
Exposing how to rotate the hips seems like it is different for each person…in the past I have described it as having on dial on the side of your hip and rotating that dial forward. I have also talked about shifting the weight from your sit bones more forward to your perineum. Others talk about trying to touch your belly button to your top tube….try all those cues and see what may work for you.
This also brings us back to the saddle issue….having the right saddle is a critical component of bike fit. What saddle are you currently using and which ones have you tried in the past?
@HLaB I’ll give that a try over the next few weeks. My first time seeing my position in a very long time and my leg does look very straight when compared with other’s pictures. I have thought about praying mantis but am concerned it will interfere with my front hydration. Currently I attach a Xlab Versa mount between the bars. Use it to hold a regular bottle. More important the front computer mount places my Garmin in a place where I can read the display clearly. Can’t hurt so it would be worth a try!
@Power13 my saddle progression so far: ISM PS1.0, ISM PN3.1 and currently JCob Type 5. Tried a Fisik saddle for a hot minute but the center channel was a bit shallow. The PS1.0 felt like my hamstrings were nudging the wings during longer rides. The PN3.1 solved that problem but I found I would slide/rock to stay in position because it is more narrow. The Jcob is working pretty well since picking it up early last year. The common discomfort issue from all saddles has been chaffing in the area of the groin tendon.
I will have to play with hip rotation and see what ideas there are with a little forum searching. Testing in a chair I think I’m just folding at the waist. When you rotate you’ll still feel the same sit bones but the pressure will be more on their front?
My fitter originally set me up on a road bike with clip-ons. I never got a copy of the numbers from any fit but I wonder if those are close to how he set me up on the P2.
