Sweet Spot Progression

[TheFatSagan]

IMO your lucky to have the 100m TT before the 10m TT!
A race that long doesn´t have the same requirements on being able to perform in your higher zones (read: above FTP). Hence you could continue base training all the way up to that race, focusing on SST progression, really extending that TTE (i.e. building a huge base). Since let´s be honest, it´s probably not the guy with the highest ramp test FTP who will win that race?!

After the race, switch to build phase. Focus on increasing your FTP doing O/Us, 2x20s etc., VO2max. I´ll bet you would be flying come August!

Alternatively, now when SSBHV2 ends, do a 4w build block (raise the curve), and then go back to base (SST prog) until the race in June (extend the curve). It´s still about 3,5months to June.

[sam.fuller1]

There are several races on the same course, but the one in August usually has the fastest conditions, so makes sense to aim for that

What sort of SST progression would be best? I’ve done Phoenix +2, Polar Bear +1, Galena +3, etc. I’ve read a fair amount of this thread but not all of it…

I think extending TTE is a good idea, as it dovetails nicely with spending long periods on the bike. In 2019 my bread and butter was a weekly race pace session aiming to hold ~80% max HR. Longest ride was 4-5 hours with 2.5 hours straight at that effort.

Post-race build phase also makes sense.

I think a short block of Build when I finish SSBHV2 would be a good idea. I quite like the look of some of those efforts around 105-110% FTP, as that’s usually where 10m TT effort.

Edit: forgot to say thanks!

[velocoach]

This may have been posted in here before, but what portion of your extensive phases are FTP and what portion is SS?

I did a SS extension block a few months ago over the course of 5 weeks:
3x20min → 2x30min → 1x60min → 3x25min → 2x35min → 1x75min → 4x20min → 1x90min

Now I’m looking to do this again after a Vo2 block, but would like to include some more FTP work than last time. I imagine it’s very similar to the SS but some days are Threshold work instead of SS, is that about all there is to it?

[anthonylane]

@velocoach

I did a SS extension block a few months ago over the course of 5 weeks:
3x20min → 2x30min → 1x60min → 3x25min → 2x35min → 1x75min → 4x20min → 1x90min

This is sort of my path. What was the most difficult? 1x90? What percentage of FTP were you doing these at?

In terms of how to do an FTP phase, I haven’t experimented by adopting a progressive approach so I cannot comment with any certainty. However, if it were me, I’d probably do 2x FTP sessions per week, and progress them at an interval duration that was 25% less than what I was doing SS at. So if I’m starting SS at 3x20 an FTP workout would become 3x15 (at FTP or maybe slightly above). This is just what I would do, w/o any real experience doing an FTP block structured this way.

Last season I did a polarized block that used 6, 7, and 8 min intervals at 105% of FTP and I thought that was pretty awesome.

[jackkellam]

Yeah - I think some longer sessions outside on the TT bike with time spent at race pace (Z3) and a chance to get better at fuelling, holding position, etc. will be as useful as anything for 100 prep. Training-wise though, really pushing out that TTE is gonna be the primary aid. 100m TTs are exactly the sort of thing the training in this thread will directly help with.

[russell.r.sage]

The hardest thing I’m having with this thread is the length of it and not being able to read it all, and then translating advice like this into an actual plan.

In this case, how many times did you work this per week. Did you do two workouts with a rest week in there? Did you do two workouts repeating the previous workout the following week? What other work did you do?

[jackkellam]

Judging by the post looks like 2 workouts every 10 days or so.

Think I’d say that you can potentially progress a bit quicker than this, especially if you’ve got familiarity with doing extensive SS work. Doing one SS and one TH session a week, I’ve gone 3x20 // 2x30 // 2x40 // 1x90 in 4 weeks for my SS workouts.

How much you can manage and progress is going to be quite personal and specific.

[russell.r.sage]

yeah, thanks for that. Just didn’t want to load 3 of these up a week and blow up or add so much other work in addition to this that I did the same. I’m tolerating mid-500 TSS well right now at about 9-10 hours a week. Sweetspot Sunday is one of my favorite days.

[velocoach]

@russell.r.sage

The hardest thing I’m having with this thread is the length of it and not being able to read it all

Agreed, I’ve been reading the thread on and off since it’s inception, but occasionally I come back to gaps of 50 messages between where I left off so I more than likely miss out on some good stuff. With that being said, I felt the progression I did worked out really well for me based on this thread and some other podcasts and articles around the subject.

@russell.r.sage

how many times did you work this per week. Did you do two workouts with a rest week in there? Did you do two workouts repeating the previous workout the following week? What other work did you do?

I did 2 workouts per week on weeks 1, 3, and 5, and then 1 workout per week on weeks 2 and 4. I also added an extra recovery day on weeks 2 and 4 (this is something I got from the book The Well-Built Triathlete by Matt Dixon… instead of overloading really hard, you progress throughout the entire block and add an extra recovery day every other week…). Week 6 was a recovery week.

I am unable to ride on Sundays, so my weeks start on Monday and my longest ride is on Saturday. I did these workouts on Tuesdays (I like to have a day of endurance 1.5-2hrs before doing harder work rather than jumping in from rest day to intervals), and Friday or Saturday (Friday I would only do the SS work and Saturday I would turn it into a longer endurance ride with the SS work mixed in). I only did endurance apart from these… All my endurance is RPE based but it ended up being about 70-80% of FTP for the endurance (which is normal). I was around 10hours per week at this time. TSS was around 600… Here’s what the full block looked like:

@anthonylane

What was the most difficult? 1x90? What percentage of FTP were you doing these at?

Personally, yes the 1x90 was the most difficult for me. Some people thrive with the single intervals, but I really enjoy a rest period in between. All of these were done at 90% of FTP. I thought about mixing things up, but figured there would be some days where I end up at 88% and other days where I’m up at 92-93%. This is exactly what happened, but on average I was 90% for the work period.

If I were to do this again, I would probably progress a little bit faster, or as I’m planning to do now, progress SS and FTP at the same time. In retrospect it felt pretty conservative and that I could probably have done 3 per week and maybe 2 every other week… Or just do 3 per week for 3 weeks, recovery 1 week, then do it again. This especially might happen if I’m doing SS and FTP at the same time… I might also do something different instead of the 4x20min. It felt weirdly short after doing some of the longer work (maybe 3 x 30min?).
@anthonylane that’s a good recommendation for starting out with FTP 25% less, I’ll give this some thinking over and see how it looks in my full plan. Thanks for that

@russell.r.sage As a note to the above, if I were progressing faster, I would be doing it within the workday. It seems like this is the best strategy… So instead of adding on another workday, just increase the work on a specific day.

[PattyP]

Pfff increasing FTP to 292w with 66kg is fun, but after that it’s hard to do SST again.

Today 1x25min and 1x15min 90%. Would do 2x30 but quit earlier…

TTE = 43min

I think the race on tuesday (49min 293w) still in my legs

[anthonylane]

Thanks for posting this. Interesting that you alternated weeks with 2 workouts then 1.

I’ve never thought to do this, but it looks like it could be a good way to manage fatigue while trying to incorporate a block of strength training with a sweet spot progression that also includes some over-under work. By doing this it will allow me to get in two strength days on the weeks where I’m doing one sweet spot ride versus trying to balance 2x sweet spot rides per week AND 2x strength sessions…which would be too demanding. The other option was to go 2x sweet spot and then drop down to 1x day per week of strength.

If I follow your method above I get something like this, which looks really nice on paper. 4 good sweet spot sessions and 3 good over/under sessions all within 5 weeks.

(ST = Strength Training)

[anthonylane]

@velocoach

@anthonylane that’s a good recommendation for starting out with FTP 25% less, I’ll give this some thinking over and see how it looks in my full plan. Thanks for that

Just checked a Tim Cusick presentation that was linked earlier in this thread and saw he has a sample FTP progression (page 31)…given your current form you could probably adjust the interval durations accordingly.

http://storage.trainingpeaks.com.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/downloads/WKO4%20Fatigue%20Resistance.pdf

[RONDAL]

In all of these plans that you guys are posting, when are you doing your testing and what are you doing for PDC maintenance?
I just did ramp test on Sunday, 1min power test on monday. mFTP bumped from 313 to 323 and then back down to 299 with the 1min power test. I now need to schedule a 25-30min test this weekend as the front end of the curve is clearly pulling the back end down.

[jarsson]

@RONDAL

In all of these plans that you guys are posting, when are you doing your testing and what are you doing for PDC maintenance?

Short power testing (I hate short power) - usually during some recovery week - do and forget. 5 min - after vo2 max block or when 5 min is close to fall off from 90 days, 20-30 - honestly, never because I do not care. And long 60 min when I feel my FTP went up. If I would want PDC to be really properly maintained I would need do only tests, not the workouts

[PattyP]

Short tests after recovery week. Medium tests depends. When needed at end of the first week after recovery week and i use Zwift races for longer FTP tests around 40-50min with trainer difficulty at 0%

[SeeEl]

You need to be careful with Tim Cusick’s slides. When you watch the videos he often calls out reasons why they are misleading (maybe too strong a word). Including slides with interval progressions.

[RONDAL]

@jarsson

If I would want PDC to be really properly maintained I would need do only tests, not the workouts

Not sure I follow the logic on this one. You use WKO model to provide wattage targets and TTE metrics to base your training around, but then you dont feed inputs in properly on a semi-regular basis? Seems like a great way to get garbage in/garbage out and I would question what the point of using WKO is in the first place.

WKO does not advocate for updating the model weekly, but on a semi-regular basis or after step change in training or lack thereof.

[anthonylane]

It’s just an example. A place to start.

[anthonylane]

It depends, I don’t have WKO4/5 so the PDC stuff isn’t something I monitor too closely—I just adjust by feel.

Or I’ll schedule a ramp test prior to starting a new block and adjust FTP based on how prior or subsequent workouts go.

I really only consider my FTP when I’m establishing “zones” in the base phase, which is when 90% of my indoor training happens.

FTP is meaninglessness to me in-season. I ride by feel. Full gas for VO2 work and threshold. RPE and HR for SS, tempo, endurance.

[jarsson]

@RONDAL

Not sure I follow the logic on this one. You use WKO model to provide wattage targets and TTE metrics to base your training around,

Not use WKO to provide me the wattage, why would I? If I know that my TTE is 60 min, because I test it so I know what FTP work I can do, anything below FTP - done by feel, Pushing my 20 min would not change the model more than couple of watts as my 20 min is not so much different from 60 min, pVO2 max - good to know rough guide but vo2 workouts done by feel. And do not train short power - this is only my fault.

I use wko for everything other than targeting power. An my model is pretty maintained - everything is inside 90 days range.