I don’t have the answer, but is it not dependent on the Fractional Utlization of VO2max @ FTP?
If FTP is only 75% of VO2max there is no reason to do VO2max yet. Still room under the ceiling. So better to start a new progression at higher wattage.
If FTP is closer to 85-90% then doing VO2max-work could be necessary to raise the ceiling before doing more FTP work.
At least that is my understading. By the way, I have very similar goal event, Maratona Dolomiti, which is several high-altitude climbs at Tempo pace and hardly any anaerobic efforts.
I can easily see that 3x15 would be a “starter set” for most athletes who are hiring a coach. But the contrast I’ve been phrasing is: in what kind of athletic condition are those athletes starting from?
Even after a few years of riding, I am still a “starter athlete” in the very first stages of the journey: training is low-vol and inconsistent, I’m 80 pounds overweight, I finish in the last 2% of running races I enter, I’m in the bottom 5% of the Intervals.icu population for W/kg, and so on.
It makes sense to me that my ramp rate is so much slower than for most most people… for now. That’s part of why I commented, just to show how different things look from the other end of the performance pool.
But yes, @kurt.braeckel, I could be wrong and a great deal of my difficulties could be from something else, like a too-high FTP. I have no idea whether that might be the case: I’ve always used the ramp test, and now AIFTPD, to set it.
Ditch the weekend Sweet Spot, just do VO2max during the week and endurance on the weekend, like 3hrs easy, around 60%.
Recover and hit VO2 again the next week. You’re not going to lose anything this way, and your legs will have a much better time of the VO2 work. I recommend hard-start/high-cadence max effort intervals. There’s a whole thread on the forum dedicated to it.
Yep.
VO2, IMO. (See a trend developing here?). But again, this is simply my preferred approach… but you’re already doing 63min at 96%. You need to raise the ceiling IMO.
You can do the VO2, then hit some FTP work to solidify the gains for a couple of months, and then you hit a lot of extensive SST/Tempo/LT1ish type work as your event approaches. This is a “reverse” periodization (which is kind of a BS name because it’s still doing General → Event Specific prep).
Sure, but you don’t need WKO to figure this out. For most people, if you do an extensive SST block, and it’s then evident that FTP went up because things like HR stay much lower and the efforts feel easier… you’ll know if FTP has gone up substantially. Then you can test and make a decision. If you got a big jump in FTP, repeat the progression and extend TTE at the new threshold.
Again the advice I’m giving is in a vacuum and will vary based on training background and history. I go into this assuming most of the posters in this thread are fairly well-trained, and likely beyond the point where an extensive SST block alone is going to elicit large changes in FTP. As always, YMMV.
Yeah it’s possible. Hard to say without looking at training history and some proper testing. Don’t sell yourself short though, W/kg and weight don’t necessarily reflect aerobic fitness, and that’s really what we’re talking about here. FWIW, my experience with TR athletes who use AIFTPD is pretty good, but it is very much a black box - you get out what you put in. The ramp test is a disaster.
Answered above. “General” prep in this case is Endurance + Tempo → SST progression → VO2 → FTP and then “event specific” is SST/Tempo and LT1 progression and volume is key along the way. I sprinkle in cadence manipulation along the way to get large motor units involved since there’s not a ton of “anaerobic” training in this philosophy. This is just mapping out a general approach here, and shouldn’t be taken as dogma. It depends a lot on athlete history, age, etc.
Agreed… but my point is precisely that I’m not very fit yet! My best watt outputs this year are all sub-20th percentile, my race results are literally 2nd percentile, a 13:45/mile pace for a 10K speaks for itself, etc.
But that’s not “selling myself short”, nor is it remotely reflective of my potential. Hell, no. I’m just trying to illustrate my current condition/performance for y’all, in comparison to many pointy-ender posters, and note that there are a bunch of TR users like me who:
really are cycling only 2-4 hours per week,
must understand and accept their current performance capability,
must understand and accept their current capability to improve performance per unit time (ramp rate),
and then intelligently work from there to get faster and stronger.
Part of what got me into trouble for the first couple of years was reading this forum and not realizing how strong the selection bias was! Most posters/conversations are at the pointy end, and for all of you things like “3x15 @90% is a starter workout” are entirely true and reasonable.
Nothing wrong with that at all, of course! I’m just saying, those at the feathered end of the arrow need to think critically about what we read, and some pointy-enders might consider that the TR arrow extends a lot further back than they think.
I take it then that the VO2max block is not just for raising the maximum ml/kg/min but also for raising the FTP.
And following the VO2max block with a FTP-training block enhances that effect even further?
So first we do a tempo/sweetspot progression to enhance our overall aerobic performance and “move the PD-curve to the right”. Then a VO2max-block to boost the aerobic engine further and “push the PD-curve up”. And as an icing on the cake a Threshold-progression to once again move the TTE @ FTP to right, and hopefully also raise it even further.
Then, in my (and @jz91 's) case, with an A goal event which is essentially a 7 hour ride with 5 hours cumulative of tempo. The last race-specific preparation block could be another tempo/sweetspot progression.
If I back calculate this from my Goal Event the above scheme starts at the beginning of March.
Considering the fact that I am away for 10 days at the end of February on Snowboarding-trip, this gives me approximately 11 weeks to fill. So enough to complete my current Endurance/Tempo progression, do VO2 block and FTP-block.
So two cycles: Tempo > VO2 > Threshold > (short break) > Tempo > VO2max > Threshold > Tempo > Event.
Also sounds like a pretty solid training approach for any 6-10 hour gravel race where there isn’t a lot of riding in a group. Might be my plan for the Rift in July…
Yeah that could work, but I would caution against a second VO2max block because you probably won’t need it (or want it) in that short of a time frame. Again, very athlete dependent. I have yet to prescribe more than one in a training year because they are tremendously stressful, and normally what happens is you’ll get a relatively large boost in FTP, and so the rest of the season is then spent adapting to that new threshold in terms of TTE and sustained efforts.
For ultra events like you’re describing, yes, I usually do more SST extension, then tempo, then race pace/LT1 type work as the event approaches. It depends on the event, though, and the athletes pacing goals as to what the specifically looks like. If you’re just aiming to finish, a lot of base endurance riding. If you have a specific goal in mind, there’s going to be a lot of time spent at tempo/sweet spot climbing and a lot of time spent around ~70% of threshold, in all likelihood. So train accordingly!
The second sweet spot progression in this case would be less about overall TTE and more about prepping for specifics. E.g. if there’s an hour-long climb as part of it, a workout might be a 1x60 SST as part of a 3-4 hour endurance ride.
100%. If you do it right, it’s gonna take more than 3-4 days to recover from. I don’t think I felt right for a month after mine last year (but I did a crazy protocol that you probably don’t need). 1-2 weeks of big time recovery is normal for most people, and then gains might manifest right away or take a block or two to show up. Depends on the person and anyone’s guess as to why that is…
Previous years when I did more reasonable protocols I usually needed about 10 days to get right (in my early 40s).
I am also in this camp of not being able to make these big jumps in PL 3x15 @90% is Tray Mountain -1 a 5.2 level Sweet Spot workout, I did Round Bald -1 this week (3x15 @85%). I’m also one of the folks that has essentially been doing a Masters plan since before they became a thing, generally 6-8 hours of riding each week but only 2 hard interval sessions a week, with the rest being Z2 or outdoors (mostly commuting 45 mins each way). I think the AI generally seems to keep my FTP at the bleeding edge though of my FTP so I rarely get any PL to exceed 5 before I am bumped up a few watts and huffing and puffing my way through the level 2.8 to 4 PL level workouts again.
I’m not super old (mid 30s) but am a covid baby so started riding mid summer 2020 so feel like I’m still developing a base fitness that seems to take years to grow. Its wild seeing the Junior racers go from complete noodles to hanging in there with the Cat As in ~2 years. I definitely don’t develop fitness at that rate.
Solution is easy, stop accepting ftp increases and work on increasing sweet spot duration. You shouldn’t be huffing and puffing your way through lower level sweet spot. If you really want to know if your ftp is correct, try and do a 30+ min effort at what you think you ftp is. I feel like the TR approach of suggesting ftp increases and using low progression levels to mask overestimation is still a major flaw
I feel like they have discussed this on the podcast before a few times, their perspective is to take the FTP progress rather than delay the FTP progression to develop more within a lower FTP. I asked about this on the forum in late 2022/early 2023 when planning out this year and saw a mixed opinion on that as well (Developing PLs more within a static FTP vs taking the FTP progress and constantly reseting the the PLs) at that time it seemed the consensus (though not unanimous) was take the FTP progression.
TR now has that feature where if you fail a 2.5 PL or lower workout they will suggest a FTP drop, so that hasn’t happened but have definitely had some 2.8 to 3.5 level workouts that were very hard after FTP increase. Wheel -3 (3.5) recently killed me, stopped about 2/3 of the way through the last interval but then it still gave me the progression, it did put me in a bit of a hole for a bit in the midst of CX season, racing back to back Sat/Sun races with other workouts and commuting during the week, failed Yukon (3.3) about a week and half later but then was back on track 3 weeks later after Wheel -3 (would have likely recovered faster without the weekend races).
The big focus in 2023 for me was progressing my volume over necessarily progressing FTP or PLs, so this year the goal was to do a minimum of 6 hours of riding per week for the full year, only 4 weeks to go to accomplish that goal.
Have been in contact with someone to potentially coach me for 2024 (not going anywhere, am a time crunched Master but just want to get closer to my potential peak fitness) so will see what they think but I would like to continue to progress my weekly volumes and start adding in some resistance training without putting myself into a hole.
I think a lot of the guys I want to be competitive with actually have a lower W/Kg than me as they probably are ~23 kg heavier than me but they also have ~70W higher FTPs (looking at their FTP ramp test results), so my W/Kg advantage doesn’t always play out, especially when things get spiky, their race power files (more than one racer) show repeated 900w spikes coming out of tight corners in races where I have been dropped badly (circuit or crit races), in normal road races I can hang in the mix and can sometimes unintentionally make small separations with small climbs or while on the front (have never had the confidence to try and make a solo break or bridge into the headwind when this occurs) but will lose positions in a pack sprint at the end.
I have specifically heard them say on the podcast that there are scenarios where you don’t want to do that, and you want to drive progression levels. Accepting a higher AIFTP does not actually mean you’re more aerobically efficient or you’re driving MLSS (and your actual FTP) higher in every case.
When I look at this year for me, I just accepted my first FTP bump since May and it was under 2%, and volume has averaged > 10 hours weekly. During that time I spent a TON of time doing SST, Tempo, and Endurance. My TTE increased, heart rate at different powers decreased, endurance pace increased. I think my Tempo / SST Progression levels all maxxed out over 9. Even having just accepted an increase, Tempo is at 6.5, Sweet Spot at 8.5. I will caveat this in that I am naturally stronger / more anaerobic with a reasonably high raw FTP, and my focus is marathon length events where I need to be able to diesel along in those lower zones all day, and if I just wanted to drive my AIFTP number higher, I could be focusing on short power and seeing that number climb faster.
If you commute frequently, and are riding 8 a week, what’s the longest ride you do?
I won’t get into the ins and outs of AIFTPD and PL, but yes, TR plans focus way too much on moving “FTP” up, and not enough on extensive work. Put the focus on going LONGER, not HARDER during base. If you’re having a good day, extend the intervals or skip the rest rather than bumping up workout difficulty. If you’re getting stronger, extend the intervals at the same power.
The consensus on the TR forum was to do what TR said on a podcast. Who knew?
The TR podcast gives a lot of really bad advice these days, and is a marketing tool first and foremost. I would take any advice given based on the present-day podcast with a grain of salt. YMMV.
I don’t know, because my only power based rides (my new road bike for 2024 will have a PM) are on the trainer using TR, I never have assessment of maximal efforts.
This week I did Round Bald -1 which is 3x15 at 85% and Zabriskie which is 4x8 min at 98%, last week I did Spruce -2 which is 2x20min at 85% but those are workouts rather than an all out, how long can you hold it sort of thing.
In recent history 1h45 threshold or 2 hour SS workouts like Zabriskie and Kabati. Was thinking of discussing with my potential coach getting my hard interval days during the week (currently do one on Mon or Tues and the other on Sat usually) to allow for progression through low intensity Z2 rides on Sat or Sunday from 3h up to 4h (don’t really wanna exceed 4h on the trainer) which I can see helping me get up to around 9.5h a week. Biggest week for me this year was 13h31min with a 4h41m group ride on the weekend after a week of commuting and 2 ‘hard interval’ TR workouts during the week. Last winter I did trad base and tried to push Z2 intensity and was able to do stuff like Walker, Dombai, Sandy Bay and Broken Hand. Was thinking to push volume would instead focus on progressing from Karnak to Hemp or Finley.
