This season I have focused on extending time at sweet spot and doing long hard endurance rides at the aerobic threshold. It seems to work well and I have done every workout with recovered legs. Two weeks ago I did a three hour long Zwift ride at sweet spot, in some parts it was under sweet spot (like descending from Epic KOM segment) but as power average for the whole 180 minutes I was at about 86 % of my FTP. Last week I did also 75 minutes at 97 % of FTP. In October it was tough to do 2x20 min at sweet spot with lower FTP. It is tougher to do 180 minutes at sweet spot now, but somehow I manage to suffer so long. Maybe I can do 240 minutes before the summer comes, but now it feels like I donât have to concentrate on it anymore. Regular SS training has been two times some of the following sessions: 1x60-90 min, 2x45-60 min or 3x25-40 min.
I use my 40-60 min max power to define my FTP as I can ride that quite nice on threshold heart rate. I try to test it once in a month. From a 20 minutes test it would be way too high because I can push the last 4-5 minutes at VO2max power. I think my genetics suit well with long SS efforts as I have very muscular legs which can store a lot of glycogen.
I think I will still do a couple of three week sweet spot blocks and then I will get a short threshold block to get my legs ready for gravel racing in the summer. The first race will be in the end of April. I have done some assimilation rides already and studied how to get everything together with nutrition. As we have snow here the possibilities to do long race-like assimilation rides are limited, but I am sure I will do a lot of them in May and June.
Why would you need to keep pushing it out? Going longer at SST at some point is a diminishing return for many riders. Remember, itâs about the minimum effective stimulus that suits what you need. There arenât many amateur riders that need to be able to put out 4 hours at SST⌠and if youâre doing 4hrs at what you think is 90%, thereâs a decent chance youâve underestimated your FTP by quite a bit.
JMO, but I can see how reading through this thread people might think âI should push longer!!â More is not necessarily better. If youâre already doing roughly 3 hours at SST, Iâm not sure two additional three week blocks of more sweet spot is really necessary.
Itâs all about what people need. Friel was probably right. That said, a gravel racer and ultra-endurance MTB riding and even ultra-distance triathletes can probably benefit from extending time in sweet spot out to 2 hours⌠Grand Tour riders probably even more than that with consideration for fatigue resistance day-after-day.
One problem with a lot of training discussions is that people see âXXXX is doing this, so should I.â But they donât apply the context to WHY XXXX is doing that. Example is the LT1 endurance discussion going on elsewhere as well⌠San Milan programs that for his top notch world athletes, so others are thinking all their Z2 time should be at LT1, and thatâs not true. As I said, a Cat 4 or Cat 3 crit racer doesnât need to spend 2 hours in sweet spot. A Cat 1 road racer probably does. Context matters⌠thatâs why the first question I asked was âWhy?â
Like any good coach, if someone would ask me, âShould I push my sweet spot progression out to 2 hours or 3 hours?â, my answer would be, âIt dependsâŚâ
Good point. I am training for long gravel races (8 h plus) so as in general more is more. As I wrote, I feel like I donât have to concentrate on time at sweet spot anymore because it is quite good for me now. But as itâs quite long time before I race I wouldnât like to begin more intense training yet as the risk to get overtrained or too early in form would be increased.
I do these 40-70 min efforts regularly to find out where I am and these power number are in line with intervals.icu FTP estimation. Right now my estimated FTP is ca. 375 W from a 20 min effort I did and the graph gives me similar FTP estimation from a 7 min full gas effort. I use this number for setting my power zones and the intervals are in general spot on to do, I donât blow up but the last minutes are always quite hard when Iâm executing them in the middle of the SS power zone.
I for sure feel when I have wrong power zones and have gone the hard way when doing them too hard. Previously my training has been more like polarized VO2max-focused training with quite a lot of training hours in context of my daily schedules. Back then I felt like I didnât go anywhere with my endurance and most of time I was under recovered because the intervals were so hard. Now I do more sweet spot focused training and in general more TSS. Iâm able to do more training hours too and I recover well.
I feel like that I can now perform at FTP or very near it even though I have lot of fatigue in my legs. I can also ride now very long at the aerobic threshold. But the VO2max power hasnât got anywhere either, now Iâm able to do it when Iâm tired or when Iâve already near the limit. So it works for me.
For me all this sweet spot training is also mental training, because the races are long and hard I must be able to overcome negative thoughts, withstand fatigue and have energy to push at the limit when Iâm tired. Maybe with more intense intervals I would be at faster (like in time trials or road racing), but at the long gravel race I would finish slower. To be precise I donât do SS training more often than two times a week, maybe three times at the last week of the block to get me so tired that I wonât think about training for a couple of days. Other training is just high Z2 riding or gym training.
Whatâs most important, I like doing this training and Iâm always motivated doing it. Maybe consistency is the reason why Iâve gone so well forward with it. Because the sweet spot training isnât so intense, I donât need to have the best legs or the freshest brain for it. I can execute good power after hard day at work from day to day and it gets me forward with good recovery. It is also quite easy to do with the climbs on Zwift. As I am not doing this for work and I like it, I think it is the best training for me.
If youâre still progressing by doing it, hammer away. It may not be the optimal thing for you, but if thatâs not a concern then who cares? Have fun!
My comment was also meant to the group at large where weâve got people who are constantly pushing out-out-out, and that may not be the best thing for them, nor remotely necessary given their disciplines. People shouldnât read these 2400 posts and come away thinking, âUnless I can get to 2 hours (or 3 hours) of SST, I suck!â Context matters.
85 % of FTP for three hours as the definition for low sweet spot at intervals.icu. Sorry that I wasnât precise. Two hours at 90 % would be max for one SS effort I think. But that was with my previous FTP - tested it today with K. Moores protocol and got 9 W bump! So my time at sweetspot is shorter again. Also TTE for FTP was shorter than I thought. After all its going to right direction
I have a really bad day mentally and I do not want to say anything to both of you with your massive FTPâs, huge stroke volumes and impressive stamina
I am big guy too, around 87-88 kg now and legs like tree trunks. So that explains a bit of the watts. I became a father second time in autumn so Iâve got some dad watts too but I have terrible racing instinct so Iâm not going to win anything with my legs yet, have to do a lot of mental training still.
I did the old SS build 1 & 2 high volume plan back in 2020 with pretty good compliance (I think I swapped the sunday SS for Z2). It was an epic beat down, but I felt like I could pedal hard all day after my first block of build. In 2 separate races, I have normalized power of 88% for over 3 hours and one was a gravel race that I won by riding away solo with 60 miles remaining (pretty much my ultimate dream come true as a bike racer). Sweet spot endurance is not the kind of tool thatâs going to help you in a crit, but gravel racing (in particular) I find rewards sweet spot power endurance. Iâve done well in gravel by outlasting people.
Iâm not sure I will ever do that kind of sweet spot volume again, it was physically tough and even tougher mentally. I also felt like I might have peaked after build 1 and had too much residual fatigue going into build 2.
The problem with sweet spot (for me) is that I feel like the numbers should always be doable, but it just compounds mentally and physically on consecutive days. I always felt like a hero on Tuesday, Wed was a little tough, but Thursday was always on the hairy edge of excess fatigue. I was 50 at the time, so maybe my masters status plays into that. My current base approach is SS on Tues/Thurs and high Z2/low Z3 as much volume as I can handle on the other days (always a long ride on Sat.).
going to nit pick on this because i think there is a huge misconception about training and how it equates to racing.
cycling is an aerobic sport. period.
Even if youâre racing crits, its still aerobic. Yes there are periods of intensity, but if you understand how the anaerobic/aerobic pieces work you know that anything greater than 2min is basically aerobic, so a crit lasting 45-75min is very much aerobic.
If you can use SST to grow your aerobic engine it is absolutely going to help you in crits. Couple it with the fact if you are growing your aerobic engine you are likely pushing up your FTP, all else equal, EVERYTHING is easier.
Your aerobic engine also takes a lot longer to grow and cultivate vs. anaerobic. So when you do make the switch to working on your anaerobic pieces closer to race time, you are building on a much larger foundation and the gains are more pronounced.
Also as it related to race tactics, if you are racing crits and plan to go in a breakaway it can very much be a SST effort. If you are sitting in the pack, depending on your positioning and bike handling, it will be a lot more stochastic with lots of surges.
I pretty much agree with all of that, just pointing out that the specific ability to put out sweet spot power for long periods isnât a card that helps as often in a crit compared to gravel. Poor wording on my part.
That said, I do think there is a difference between building a big aerobic engine and building sweet spot endurance. They are obviously highly inter-related, but I think it could be possible to have a big aerobic engine and still struggle with long sweet spot. For me personally, I can get to a point where I can ride high Z2 and low Z3 for 6+ hours when focusing on those power zones, but not be able to go out and ride at SS for 3 hours. Maybe thatâs still an under-developed aerobic engine, but I suspect there are some neuromuscular factors going on also. I honestly donât know, but thatâs what I suspect.
I think a key point is also that even if the surges are anaerobic, the recovery from them is aerobic. If you aerobic engine isnât big enough, you canât recover quick enough.
I think the only cycling discipline that doesnât benefit that much from aerobic training is track sprint. That is usually a single effort, not really lonv enough to make it aerobic, and lots of recovery before the next round.
Yep, and pretty much all efforts have some aerobic component, even the highly anaerobic ones. The real question maybe for this thread is whether you can just use SS to optimize your aerobic engine. I think it can take you a long way, especially on limited hours, but you need to come from the bottom as well to optimize it. At least thatâs my understanding, but Iâm no expert.
This goes to that chart that always get thrown up which shows the benefits of each of the training zones. Yes you can do it with long z2, you can also do it with SST. Both have their place and benefits, but as you pointed out with time being the biggest constraint for most amateur cyclists, SST is a great place to spend some quality time.
Thatâs a good question. Spontanously Iâd say that the way to improve your aerobic engine is long endurance and vo2max work, and threshold and sweetspot work builds the muscular endurance to actually make use of it.
So maybe for a crit racer or a pure hill climber, they wouldnât need much sweetspot/threshold work.
However the other aspect is that whilst doing long sweetspot intervals, you are also getting a good dose of aerobic training,as you canât decouple the two. So if you donât have time for a lot of long endurance, and only race short events, substituting with sweetspot might work better.
Ok, so maybe crits are a bad example. I deliberately didnât say cx, because I know from experience that I actually spend quite lot of time at threshold.
Most of my racing is crits right now. Did well last season with 90min TiZ during my SST work. Most of my crits were 50min or less. My point was more a Cat 3 crit racer doing 60min crits doesnât need to build their SST out to three hours. Theyâd be a monster if they did, but there are other issues that can arise from THAT much time.
I planned to build out to 2 hours but COVID derailed that. I need to get into my other training so maybe Iâll try and push past 90min. In reality, as a 3 hoping to ride up to 2, 90 is probably enough provided other systems are tuned and firing.
