Sweet Spot Progression

I’m not sure. I just got started on WKO5. I think the bike FTP is set by the user.

Yes you can manual change it. The bikeFTP is for your Performance Management Chart.

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You have to set the bike FTP to have proper ctl and tss as they are based on bike FTP not mftp. The same is for weight as vo2 max takes your weight from the user setup. And sign-up for wko group on Facebook (yes, I know…) as there are some amazing charts shared.

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Hi folks,

Sunday i did 2x 15min 308w (FTP 300w)
Yesterday i would do 2x30 SST around 280w but it went very well and did 60min 285w (95%). I train for criteriums and races around 90min. Do you think its better to focus more and straight FTP work and progress 2x15 → 3x15 → 2x20 → 3x20? My TTE is now 34min, but i need to do an TTE test.

Why not do both? Progress with threshold and go longer with SST. I see a lot of benefits of those longer SST workout to my TTE and how threshold feels.

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Thnx. How do you recommend the progression in SST to 90min? 2x45-> 1x90?

Very highly individial. Personally I like to start the block with 4x20 - always good workout and allows me to back into the game of longer intervals. Then 3x30 - longer intervals, slightly harder but not mentally challenging as much. 2x40 - here I have the biggest problem because I never want to do the second interval so I always end up doing 1x90 because after 40 min interval I am into the zone and brake is doing more harm than good mentally :wink:

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@PattyP where are you at now in your extensive progression?

Earlier in the season, it took me 7 workouts to progress to 1x60 @ 90%. After taking a 12-week break from focused Sweet Spot training I started up another extensive progression block a few weeks back and have gotten to 1x60 after just 3 workouts. My fatigue resistance residuals have held with me despite not really doing an interval longer than 15-min since March.

My point is that if this is your second (or third) progression you might get to 1x90 quicker and can do it with fewer intervals (3x30 or 2x45 or even 1x90). 2x45 → 1x90 seems reasonable, you’ll never know if you don’t try.

FWIW, I’m sitting at a TTE of 64min and an mFTP of 320w according to WKO5. This shit works.

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I’m afraid I’m still not sure how to do intensive FTP work. Do you push power higher, even though it’ll go over FTP? Or should FTP work always only be extensive?

You can go higher power with short TTE by pushing the power with intensity and over FTP work or even better with a lot of vo2 max work - you will rise your celling and improve FTP not touching TTE.

With extensive work there is simply more benefits when it comes to other aspect of cycling. Doing 20 min with very high power is great, and if you do short TT - required, but with extensive FTP work you improve your fatigue resistance, ability to repet harder efforts, improve aerobic system, improve lactate clearing etc. Not to mention that with extensive FTP work your FTP should be pushed up as a “side effect”.

So basically it is an individual decision what you require as a cyclist and what makes you tick.

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Or extensive in base, intensive/extensive in build, and intensive in specialty

Or extensive in base, extensive in build, follow by vo2 max block and do extensive block next and follow by vo2 max and intensive/extensive in specialty. It all depends what you want to achieve.

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My experience has been that once I’ve got to 45 minutes, I decide that I never want to do this again, so I just plow on. Ie, much Like @jarsson I go from 3 x 30 straight to 1 x 90.

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Yes i have the same experience with 3min rest in between, makes it a bit harder to start again after 3min rest. Monday i wanted to do 2x30 but after 30min i make the descision to go ahead to 1x60…

Earlier in the season i start with building some SST with 3x20 and after that 1x70. The last months i didnt longer SST blocks so last monday i start again with 1x60 95%. I think i will try 1x90 90% first. I didnt like rest in between SST blocks.

So that means basically don’t do intensive FTP, unless you’ve done a vo2 block before, and your FTP is ready to grow.

My problem is that I don’t actually need the longer TTE (my races are nominally 40 minutes), I only need the “side effect” of an FTP increase.

Previous vo2 block didn’t do much for me, but maybe I just need to try again.

And here comes another aspect - volume. Last block also did nothing to me but increasing volume, even as much as 2h is doing good things. This is the latest problem I want to go deeper into. Currently trying to find a little bit more time, do 1-2h more weekly and see if this will do something. Basically the old truth - ride more, works. So if intensity does nothing to you - try volume.

And for your particular case - anaerobic capacity workouts worked for increased short power - some 15/15 or 30/15 (it was totally neglected by me during training) improved my 10-20 min power but not improved FTP.

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Yes, volume works for me. I had my best power numbers when I just rode a lot (12-15 h a week) Then I decided I should try to train smarter (or even just “train”, as opposed to just ride around), but I never got back to the high-volume fitness. Or maybe I am just about getting there now, with a bit less volume (8-10h) and some intervals and max efforts thrown in. Or I just test better, hah!

30/15s or similar are definitively on the agenda, just thinking whether to do more “real” vo2max work first. I’m 6 weeks out from race season, so want to ramp it up, without digging a hole. Hmm.
Then during race season it’ll be more SST, that worked better for me in the past.

I would think most anyone could be competitive on 8-10 hr (this is my current volume) and I do fairly well in 2-3 hour gravel races and CX events. I don’t have the fatigue resistance to do anything longer than 4 hours though, which is perfectly fine as you adjust your demands to the realities of your training.

FWIW, I did a month-long VO2 block before my first event and it helped immensely in terms of dealing with lactate, 1-8 min power, and just having bullets in the chamber when need be. It didn’t do anything for my FTP though. I don’t measure gains by improvement in FTP alone though.

My bread and butter VO2 workouts are 7x3, 4x4, 5x4, 5x5, etc. I think longer intervals do more than the short-short stuff.

Re: FTP

If your TTE only needs to be around 40 min I think you could still do an extensive FTP progression but maybe cap it at 100 to 125% of TTE since your goal isn’t to extend it. 4x10 → 3x15 → 2x25 → 3x20 → 1x60

Seems like you’d still get some FTP gains that way. You could also try doing shorter FTP intervals like 4x8, 5x10 @ 98-105%, stuff like that. Not quite VO2, but definitely threshold to supra-threshold. More power focused. Goal could be to raise power 5-10w weekly or something.

Lastly, don’t forget over-unders, I love those, they not only raise FTP but help with lactate shuttling, something I think is always beneficial when racing.

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Not argue with that, but from overall feeling I felt a way better with 12h. It is small difference in terms of hours but for me personally I felt way fitter. Due the life I have reduced the volume to 8 hours but recently done block around 11h (similar workouts like 8h, 3h is z2 difference) and felt way fitter. Of course 8h is enough to compete but volume leaves me feeling a lot better on the bike and what is surprising - way more fresh in a long term perspective.

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I have the same. Volume works for me. When you do normally 10h a week in 5 rides and you at every ride 15min extra time will give you 12% more volume. Calculate it over a year and it makes a huge difference.

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