First, nice job with the weight loss and being consistent with training. That is really great stuff and quite difficult.
The TR plans are excellent, but they can’t anticipate everyone’s particular circumstance. So I’d suggest you listen to your body a bit. In our team, when someone is new to cycling and endurance training, they’d generally do pure endurance work for the first season; work in the Z1/Z2 range in a five zone system.
It takes time to figure out how to pace and how to train. New endurance athletes (particularly men) tend to go to hard on the easy days and too easy on the hard days. Early training is just preparing your body to train hard.
Some things that might be helpful (take all with a grain of salt):
Dial back the training stress, particularly the running. Unless you are a very strong runner, run workouts are hard on the body. You aren’t recovering if you’re running. I’d rather do a solid mobility routine in the gym than run.
If you are training with power, consider training with heart rate for a while. Really target endurance zones. Don’t let ego drive training; your zones are your zones.
You get stronger during recovery, not during a workout, so think about off-bike nutrition and rest. These really contribute to recovery. Are you eating the best possible diet and getting enough sleep? One rest day a week sounds lit too little for someone new to structured training.
If you want to go crazy, get something like a lactate threshold test from a reputable physiologist who works with cyclists. That will give your TR ramp test a sanity check and will give some insight into how your body is transitioning from endurance to threshold.
If you want to go really crazy, invest in something like a Whoop to give you some feedback on your freshness.
That, along with a low volume plan is a lot. The workouts in the low volume plans are generally pretty high intensity.
A couple of suggestions:
Reduce your FTP by 5%
Give yourself two full rest days per week. Meaning 5 sessions per week. If you do the three LV TR sessions, that means one running and one strength session per week. you can add volume over time when you know you can handle it.
It sounds like you are thrashing yourself on the runs and have little left for the bike. If you have a heart rate monitor with heart rate zones set up, stick to Z1/Z2 when running. When you start to move into zone 3 walk. You might end up doing more walking than running for the first few weeks but it will save you in the long run.
The Tri plans are designed to accommodate running so the bike workouts are less intense (except maybe the sprint tri, but they’re shorter). As you’re picking up fitness while running there’s less need to push yourself as hard on the bike. At the moment you’re doing six days of very hard work in a program that is designed for three days of hard work. You’re not allowing yourself to recover. @bitpuddle’s reply explains that very well.
Choosing between the Tri and Bike plans really depends on what your goal is. If you’re focusing on the bike and running to lose weight and improve your performance on the bike then @bbarrera approach of TB is a good one. I had planned on biking pretty much exclusively this year and used the TB approach. I was adding a couple easy runs a week just to keep my running up. My event got cancelled and I’m planning on getting back to triathlons next year so it was natural enough to move over.
If you’re trying to improve both running and cycling I would probably aim at the triathlon plan. They give a bit more structure to your runs instead of doing the same run 3 days a week they’ll have one medium, one long and one short and slowly increase, length or intensity to improve your running. They also focus on time instead of distance so can be used by anyone. One caveat - I find that the TSS for the runs is severely underestimated in the plan. My Z2 runs come in 30-40% higher than the estimate for the TrainerRoad planned workouts. I use rTSS and hrTSS from Training Peaks to estimate it, you can get them using a free account.
Edit: I wonder is the TrainerRoad run TSS based on a 70kg /150lb male or thereabouts. I’m a good bit bigger at 94kg. Might explain the difference.
OK, so there’s a clear pattern emerging here: six days of hard work is driving me into the ground. And the six days are hard for me: LV on TR is pretty intense from what y’all say, and I’m hitting 175 HR (95% of max) on the runs as I build from scratch. So I need to reduce intensity and build a better base. Yes?
Looking forward, my goal is to do an Olympic triathlon: for fun not glory, but I like working hard and competing against my own numbers. Since my cycling is already good enough for the 40km of an Olympic tri, I figured I’d add running now until I can run 5K comfortably, then add swimming until I can complete a sprint tri comfortably… then scale from there.
Based on that, my thinking right now is:
My running fitness is improving pretty quickly. I should keep my current strategy.
Strength training is essential since I had very little strength overall, and I’m focusing on the core and upper body which will really help on the bike and in the water.
Therefore, the reduction in intensity should come from the bike. I was hoping to avoid that, but hey, you do what you gotta do. A move to either traditional base or to more outside rides it is, then. If outside, what should my upper limit on power be? 65% of FTP? 70%? And is two hours a good “endurance” ride, or should I be trying to stretch further?
Does that all sound like a reasonable strategy?
Again, thanks to everyone for the guidance you’ve given!
The answer is 3. I think you know that too. Also, welcome to the world of middle age. At 48 your not going to recover like the young pups. You can still achieve remarkable gains. If your in this for the long haul, I would suggest you read a book, *Fast Over Fifty. I would back off the running. Training = Overload + Recovery. Both are equally important.
Lastly, I’m not sure what you do if you are failing a workout. Let me share my experience last week. I came unglued in the second of 5 Sweetspot long intervals. I backpeddled 10 seconds and resumed the interval at least three times to make it through. Made it through the third interval with only backpedaling once. Then on the fourth I reduced the intensity 5%, as it was the only way of making it through. On the fifth and final interval, I returned to 100%, and almost made it but had to back pedal once with a couple of minutes to go. My point is that success and failure are not binary. Rather than failing modify the workout to get through. This way you get the work in. These plans build on themselves and if you miss getting the work in, you will find the plans impossible to complete, as you won’t have the adaptations.
the other thing to bear in mind is that the FTP test scales the workouts to your FTP but it doesn’t scan the plan to your fitness level, and there is more to “fitness” than FTP.
In other words, although your FTP setting might be correct for an individual workout, the plan taken as a whole (with your other workouts) might be too much.
This “durability” will increase over time but easy rides and easy runs will help. If you want to keep running i’d keep it super short and easy, with high frequency if you want to improve it.
and if it gets to be too much, there is nothing wrong with pushing a hard workout to the next day. Don’t worry about TSS. Do as much work as you can sustainably do, and the TSS is a chip that will fall as it may. At least for now.
All the other answers are very good and useful and all.
You’re thrashing yourself wtih the run.
SSBLV is brutal in term of intensity.
You probably do not have a strong enough base to complete it.
I failed at my first 3 attempts at SSB LV 1-2.
To be able to complete SSB1 LV I had to go through TB lv once. And even then the whole six weeks was two much as I crashed in the fist week of SSB2
To go though SSB LV2 I had to go through SSBLV1 twice more and adding Z2 work the second time around.
I added 15 minutes of taku after every weekday ride. Plus two more rounds of Taku on the off days. It really helped.
Most people who come around here being a couch potato or after severe illness don’t realize how much aerobic capacity is important. Myself included.
It allows you to recover faster, work harder and longer. Without this you’ll burn yourself at some point down the road. And even SSB LV can be too much for some people.
I’m not sure what plan you follow. But I suggest you visit traditionnal base low volume. For a full round, the whole 12 weeks. FTP won’t go up very much but it will get your body ready for harder work. And you might lose some more weight which will naturally get your W/KG higher.
There’s only one answer to very low FTP. Lack of aerobic base. My guess would be that anyone below 2-2.5 W/kg should focus on getting that base. You don’t train high-end fitness, but you grow your work capacity, which is of utter importance down the road.
I think that’s one thing the guys at Trainer Road should address. Some people are just not fit enough to tackle SBB even LV without going through a round of TB LV first.
Now be content with yourself. You’ve made a lot of progress if not with your FTP. Losing weigth is iin itself an accomplishment. Getting out of your couch is in itself worth being proud of. Your goal If you want to progress should be…
Devellop your aerobic base in a structured manner.
Oddly enough this would suggest that the workouts you’re doing now are the ones you need. SSB is all about building muscle endurance, that is to say keeping your legs spinning at a relatively high intensity for long periods of time. It should feel uncomfortable for most of those intervals, and by the last minute of them, there should be a need for extra concentration to get through it. Riding outside has a lot of moments where you are coasting compared to indoors where you must always be pushing the pedals.
As other’s have suggested, perhaps drop the intensity down a notch to get through the intervals without needing to stop. Alternatively, Coach Chad often says that backpedaling for 10 seconds or so can be really beneficial. It keeps the intensity up, but gives you a brief respite to flush the legs, and some motivation to finish the interval. I give myself one back pedal per long sweet spot interval and play a game where I try to not use it at all as a carrot. If I didn’t use it, I can use it on the next one. Keep dangling it and by the end, I often don’t use it.
Absolutely in it for the long haul, always learning and improving. Using a Whoop since December, as @bitpuddle suggested, to push me to sleep better. Bought Fast Over 50 a week ago, too.
I’ll continue running and shift my cycling focus: less intensity, build endurance with one or more TB cycles. But let me reiterate an earlier question: what does a good “endurance” ride look like? Is there a time element to consider (more than X hours), or is it just “however long I can ride”? How tired to you want to be at the end? And what should my upper limit be on power? 65%? 70%?
Here’s a link to my typical weekend outdoor ride for reference. 2:20 moving time, 130W average power, 146W NP, 0.75 IF, 130 TSS.
That ride looks pretty good, but power a little high. If you look at MAF or Polarized training, its often better to control effort level in aerobic endurance rides by pulse. The MAF formula is a good place to start at 180 - age. Same true for your runs. When I did my block of aerobic rides last summer, I controlled by pulse, and over 2 months had my average power climb 30 watts for the same pulse. This and lack of pulse /power uncoupling are clues that you’ve started to develop some aerobic capacity. Good luck.
According to Cycling Weekly, Endurance rides are 57-75 % of FTP. You are right at 75% if I look at your nominal power. I would back that down a bit.
I’m curious as to what your Whoop strap is saying. I’m particularly interested in what is telling you on days before you “fail’ a workout.
I was thinking about his more last night. If you are failing many workouts. You may want to restart the SWB1 to kinda get your legs beneath you again. Especially, if you are going to keep running. Why running? What’s your goal?
Lots of good advice here. I’d really look into the MAF heart rate training for your endurance work. Think of a typical training week as 5 days of work + 2 days of rest. Within those 5 days, 1 or 2 might be hard days with intensity, 1 might be a super easy recovery ride and the rest are endurance rides. If you ride that 6th day, it should also be a easy recovery workout. Fitting in an extra long endurance ride on the weekend also really helps with aerobic fitness.
Typically, you do this for 3 weeks and then you do an easy low volume, no intensity rest week. The rest weeks allow you to super-compensate and get faster.
Some masters athletes are more successful with 2 weeks hard, and 1 week easy.
Nobody really commented on this one. If you eat a healthy diet, you shouldn’t need 60 grams of sugar to do a 60 minute ride. Based on your first post (5’7", 220), you could still work on losing significant weight. I’d cool it on sugars and work on those fat burning endurance rides. Your body with shed that weight if you allow it to.
Some very good points there. Went out today for my first “true” endurance ride: 2.2 hours, average HR 141 (75% of max), 131W NP (0.67 IF). I think that fits well with what y’all have recommended, and for now I’ll be using HR as my primary benchmark as @T_Field and others have suggested.
I haven’t gotten my bike fit dialed in perfectly yet, so long rides are torture on the trainer but manageable outside. For now, I’ll plan to ride only outside (more fun, less pain), and I’ve added a rest day to my week, which now looks like this:
Monday: 60min strength training, 40min run (5K)
Tuesday: 90min endurance ride
Wednesday: 60min strength training, 40min run (5K)
Thursday: Rest
Friday: 40min run (5K)
Saturday: 150min endurance ride
Sunday: Rest
Total bike/run TSS comes out to 318, which I think I can handle.
Pay attention to the ratio of avg pulse to avg power for the 2 halves of your rides. This will let you know when you’re developing some aerobic efficiency. I think 2 rides/week is cutting it a bit short, but if your main focus is running, I suppose OK.
First of all, congrats on all the hard work towards getting into shape. Losing 20 lbs and keeping the work up to keep it off is a big win in itself.
I’m on the same journey. I’m a little taller about about 20 pounds heavier.
While the ramp test gave you a estimated FTP, I will say sweet spot work can be hard. If it means the difference between you staying encouraged and finishing the workout, there’s nothing wrong with decreasing intensity or using one of the bailouts to recover (https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201954934-Workout-Bailouts) such as pedaling backwards.
Also, I find that running and jogging can be pretty hard on the body (that’s one of the reasons why I stick to cycling.) Maybe you’re not quite fully recovered. I tried a higher volume plan and I needed to back off and lower volume just to have a better chance of finishing workouts.
Also, one thing I find in ERG mode is the whole small ring vs. big ring thing. small ring feels like constantly climbing. Big ring feels more like going fast on a flat, maybe try switching it up.
Maybe keep notes on exactly why you couldn’t complete. Was it more mental than physical? Did you need another fan to cool down? Are you staying with a higher cadence? might help you pinpoint exactly what the issue is.
Stay encouraged and keep at it. All the hard work you put in so far and just sticking with it is a big win.
Not really paying attention to recovery metrics on the Whoop yet… primarily using it as a sleep tool so far. From mid-January to mid-April, my average sleep is 65 minutes longer. I think that’s huge – a whole hour per day. Finally approaching a 70%+ average, though not quite there yet.
My sequence is couch → add bike → add run → add swim → sprint tri → Olympic tri. Just started running in March, so right now that’s still hard. That’s why I’m reducing bike volume and intensity temporarily. As the RPE of my 5K jog gets lower, I’ll add some bike work back in. Once I can comfortably do both sports, I’ll add the swim and go from there.
Started stuffing my face because the TR podcast emphasizes the need to eat a lot for long distances, and the body takes time to get used to eating that much, so that’s what I’ve been doing. Rookie mistake in not knowing how to apply advice properly. Took your advice today: only had 35g/hour and felt tired-but-fine when I got home. I’ll gradually learn what the body really needs for a given level of effort.
And yes, I need to lose another 50 pounds. My diet is not bad in terms of what I do eat… it’s the vegetables that I still don’t eat which are my biggest weakness. Always been a steak-and-potatoes guy, and I’m finding it very hard to change that.
I think this is an important point that needs restating. While TrainerRoad will provide you with progression on the bike you have none for your running. Doing 3 x 40mins might feel productive but it’s not the best way to improve your running. You’re adding fatigue but not getting the benefits of increasing your run speed and endurance. The approach will work for a while as you’re new to running, but you’ll plateau pretty quickly. It’s very easy to just run but you’ll improve a lot more rapidly and with less risk of injury with proper structure.
I’d try to find a 3 day a week beginner 10k run program online, chop the first 3 weeks off it to acknowledge the run training you’ve already banked and progress from there. I’d also try to do as much running as possible on grass, if that’s an option. I find it’s much easier on the knees and leaves the legs a lot fresher for the next bike workout.
Thougt id just show you this from the end of last year when i was just scraping a pass and yesterday when i just nailed it. Its really just about being consistent training in the right zones at the right time and a bit of patience and it will come
The first set is from yesterday and the second is the end of December. Sometimes it’s good to have a look back at similar workouts to see how you have progressed even if your ftp hasn’t changed
