For clarity, I am keeping my involvement with these types of ‘hot topics’ to a minimum, like the reminders in the few posts I’ve made.
I am leaving them to Ivy and other TR reps to handle. I feel these are best handled by official TR people.
As a reminder, forum members can and should use the flagging tools in the forum for any post they see as problematic and not following the forum rules. This presents it for review and will be addressed by Ivy or others. It’s better to do this than take on the ‘keyboard warrior’ approach that we see a bit too often.
People need to look at their own activity here too, and I suggest taking a bit more time before responding to make sure they are following the forum guidelines.
Seems like that could be the case, but if you take the time to re-read the thread it would not lead to that conclusion. The conversation has been solely focussed on the incident, crit racing and Legion as a team.
The incident between two teams. I dont think race had anything to do with the incident.
They were BOTH racing very aggressively and one got mad and start arguing and another person got even madder and threw punches. There is no innocent player here. One was the instigator another threw punches, then both threw punches. both got punished.
The response. Cycling is not a soft sport. Cycling has contact and close calls. Incidents of this nature are probably more common that most of us realize. The question on race comes when a team of mostly minorities got call out for its racing style (extremely aggressive) and other teams do not get called for the same thing. It might not be a race thing, but I fin it curious that one of the few mostly POC lead teams is called out like that.
@Joelrivera they are getting called out because they (Legion) have posted several videos show themselves using aggressive tactics racing crits and now they are complaining about those same tactics being used on them. They can’t have it both ways.
If you’re referring to Cavendish, sorry I can’t help you there. He got cleared of any wrongdoing and the footage shows he didn’t do anything malicious.
Not sure if you’re describing Williams or Moscon. Or what your point is. But both have been involved in scuffles with other cyclists and both have gotten justifiable outcry towards them because of it. I was just highlighting that Justin isn’t the only cyclist to receive anger because of his actions like you make it out to be.
And to use this forum, which is an American company about training, is not a great example. It’s not hard to see it favors the US crit scene over the various cycling in Europe. So it doesn’t surprise me that domestic cycling gets more attention.
I guess my point was that I don’t feel like Justin is the first or only cyclist to have public outcry over a fight.
It’s there. Some are chosing to see it and some chosing to not see it. That doesn’t mean those who don’t see it are racist or that those seeing it aren’t racist. Just different interpretations of the same data in front of them.
Within the first 24 hours of this thread and reading articles elsewhere I had already had the thought race is absolutely a factor in the discussion going on. Days before the word color or race was mentioned in this thread. And I’m clearly not the only person that thought it since I wasn’t the one who even brought it up.
If you would actually show it rather than keep saying it’s there, that would be helpful. Because I have to agree with the other guy, I didn’t see any mention of race until someone brought it up as the reason people were mad. All the comments before that, and the outcry towards Legion, were focused on the fight.
Unfortunately, this is a messy situation that spills beyond a single incident at the SLC crit.
Some people don’t like dominant teams and hate on Legion because of it
Some people don’t like it when people self promote and hate on Legion because of it
Some people are racist and hate on Legion because of it
Some people simply root for the underdog. They don’t actually hate Legion.
Finally, some people objectively don’t like Legion for unbiased reasons. Many people will say, “oh yea, that’s me. I fit into this category, I’m being totally objective”, but I don’t believe that to be true.
Most people would agree that Hernandez shares blame at the SLC incident. Some people might even say he holds the majority of the blame, as the instigator (there must be reason why he got the bigger fine).
But here’s the problem: I see people defending Legion, I see people defending Hernandez, and I see people hating Legion, but I don’t see anybody hating Hernandez/Best Buddies. Why is that? Is it because he didn’t win? Is it because Best Buddies isn’t dominant? Is it because Hernandez isn’t black? The answer is NOT clear, as it depends on whom you talk to.
I think this is a good point. My response would be who is Hernandez? And what is Best Buddies? Before this incident, I had no idea who held the national title for crits and had probably heard of the BB team, but I still know nothing about them. I’m not hating on Legion, so just saying this for the sake of the exercise.
I think it’s clear Legion transcends the local society of USA crit racing since people who don’t know much about it know who Legion is.
I’ll just say my last piece and be done… I don’t think race had anything to do with the incident and I haven’t seen anyone claim it did either explicitly or implicitly. I do, however, think that it plays a part, whether people realize or not, in the reaction. Example, I am a black man, working at a company in which there are only 2-3 black people in my large department (<1%). As a result, there is pressure for us to perform at a standard much higher than our peers for fear of disproportionate scrutiny. Whether that pressure is real or simply perceived is irrelevant, as I’ve discussed with my therapist in the past. Simply put when you’re seen as “other”, whether people intend for it to be that way or not, the bar for your behavior or performance is set that much higher because you already stick out when you’re just trying to toe the line. When something does go awry, the reaction expected is “see I told you so”, which we’re seeing here. Similarly, my wife (who’s white) and I have found that it’s much easier for her to deal with conflict with 3rd parties in our lives than me because of how I might be perceived. Example, if she gets upset about the quality of service at a restaurant vs. if I get upset. If it’s me, I’m looked at like the “angry, aggressive black man” and if it’s her, she’s met with kindness and understanding.
When I see reactions to things Legion has done vs. others it’s similar. There’s always disproportionate piling on. There’s always the “i told you so” or “what did you think would happen” mentality. Just because people don’t make outwardly racist statements, doesn’t mean casual racism isn’t involved. That’s literally what systemic racism is.
This is the discussion that’s currently going on in the Black cycling community and what gets talked about every time there’s a reaction to something Legion (really the Williams brothers) does. And while I don’t speak for everyone, this is what is felt by the majority.
See this is your perception, but it doesn’t mean it is right. These days if a white woman gets angry in a restaurant she is called a “Karen” and mocked.
I do like what you said here:
Emphasis mine.
But I agree with this statement. I am in the military, and a good friend of mine, who is a black female, has said the same thing. Not about race, but about her gender. As in she is kind of damned if she does and damned if she doesn’t. Where she feels a pressure to represent her gender in a positive way, and that exists whether or not people consciously pressure her in this way or even view her as a representative.
In my opinion, this is why we MUST hold everyone to the same standard, and only bring up race when absolutely necessary. While people may be well intentioned, talking about it every time there is a disagreement only serves to divide further, and now everyone is looking at everything through the lens of race. Those bringing up race at every opportunity are doing more harm than good in the long run. When rules are broken, apply the consequences evenly and fairly.
Regarding this incident, I believe Hernandez received a bigger penalty, right? What if he were to claim racism? That perhaps Williams was more at fault but people did NOT want to punish Williams for fear of being labeled racist.
While I agree with this statement, I don’t agree with the rest of your assessment. While overt racism is generally obvious, there are subtle statements and opinions that one might not think are racist, but may be perceived as such by others. Those are the things that are important to point out and hope to educate people and shape their behavior. Those that care to change will, and those who don’t will continue to dig their heels in and drive the divide. You can’t, and shouldn’t, expect people to change idea of what they perceive or internalize as racism against them. While I agree that looking for it at every turn isn’t a great idea, not talking about it doesn’t do anything to help this.
You have some very legit points however I believe the reason this is getting so much attention is the stance that Legion has so vocally taken on rubbing is racing with videos of them doing it. Then they turn around and complain about it being done to them. Cory and Justin are the leaders of that team and are extremely active on the socials, this in my opinion is why it’s getting so much attention and they are being mocked called hypocritical etc. I’m not naive in that there isn’t a percentage that are using this as a way to spew their racist hate but aI don’t think it’s a majority. The fact remains if you take a stance on something then do it yourself you should be expect to be called on it, Legion is just getting as big as they gave it.