Ok as a total side observer without any relation to anything in US the whole thing seems more childish than it is portrayed. Those are two, adrenaline pumped men having disagreement similar to two guys in the bar fighting over who said what. I am completely do not understand adding fuel to this, especially racial component in any way.
At least those guys have some musle mass because if it was road race we would have two 50kg riders trying to punch eachother with arms like broomsticks;) Can you imagine Quintana vs Froome? That would be something.
The following will be twofold:
They would go for a beer next week
They use this as a marketing vehicle to show passion, devotion and charisma to the sport and niche media will be happy that they have something to write about. Every sport loves heroes and heroes need villans. It is simple narration, loved by people and media. And we will be sitting on the forum and in the bars talking who punched whom and add second meaning and theories to the very simple situation, no different than the fight with your drunk uncle after heated discussion about something completely irrelevant to our lives.
Hey - nothing against this. It’s part of who we are and what we are passioned about. But, in my personal opinion, some events are so uninspiring that it’s better to forget them as fast as we can and focus on something way more productive…
… like Dylan Johnson’s problem with trainrroad programs
I think in order to move forward we MUST overlook racism as the reason for this.
And I’m not saying that an aspect of it may not be present. The problem is it destroys any conversation about this. If its a racism thing, all discussion goes out the window, and if it wasn’t racism, then we did major damage by finding racism where none existed AND killing the conversation about improper behavior.
If racism gets brought up every time, discussion can’t be had.
If someone is blatantly racist, that a reasonable person would see as racist, by all means, shout it from the rooftops and hold the racist accountable.
I mean sure racism could be part of the reaction from everyone but If we are talking about the actual incident I’m going to take a leap and say that had nothing to do with it as Hernandez appears to not be Caucasian? My biggest issue is that the Williams brothers and have posted numerous videos commentary about the physicality of crit racing and etc. Not to mention as you can see in those videos they actually initiate a lot of that contact to actually move someone out of their way. But then to throw the victim card out? Come on, you’ve lost all credibility on that front. As for the actual contact it’s really hard to say how much force Hernandez’s contact had, it didn’t appear at least to me to be much but it could have forced Cory to widen his turn into some loose dirt etc which cause the front wheel to come out, his recovery seemed to be a bit exaggerated by pushing Hernandez all the way to the left but the fact that he stood up as soon as He had him to the curb and sprinted back to the front makes me think it was a bit aggressive. As some one mentioned there was definitely several go pros that have footage and hopefully that footage comes out to clear things up. Hopefully this whole incident will force the peloton to clean their act up and race a little cleaner. It’s dangerous enough without the extra curricular activity.
Really? Words are words, offence cannot be given it can only be taken - we all choose when to feel angry, hurt or otherwise. Physically hitting someone is completely different - there is no choice involved.
Although in spirit this sounds nice, the reality is that many racist use this wording to claim they are not racist when making actual racist comments.
If you read Twitter to the reaction to anything involved a POC, you will see the “I don’t see color, so I’m not racist” followed by a very racist comment.
Not saying this is the case here, but that has been my experience with the term.
I come from the most racist of countries and continue everyday to learn how not to see colour so that one can apply respect towards one another without a filter. Having grown up as a child in the apartheid days (not of my choosing) and now living the consequences as a +50 year old, it becomes a choice to see/not see colour, and live by those words with my actions.
To generalise how something is on a social media platform and contend that is how everyone lives their daily lives, is short-sighted. If you focus on yourself and not others, you will see clearly.
To you, if Twitter is your barometer to social relationships, then we are on different ends of the spectrum. I gave up Twitter as a decade long user due to its toxicity. If you like to dwell in that mess, enjoy.
I assume you are referring to the Crit fisticuffs and not my comment.
Maybe it’s time to change the location and the people you interact with of your experiences.
We’re venturing too far off topic but this statement is incorrect.
You cannot simply not see color, and pretend it does not impact people’s lives.
If someone comes to you and states they had an issue because of their race, saying I don’t see color will never help them. You must be able to see their color or sex or whatever other thing we’ve used to put people down in order to understand that their issues are not the same as yours.
How is pointing out that the chain of events started with Hernandez going into Williams playing the victim card?
Has Williams ever done something aggressive and then after the race gone and found the person he was aggressive too and confronted them?
I don’t see how responding to incorrectly reported chain of events that pins all the blame on you initially is doing anything more that showing your side of it and clearing the air.
Had Hernandez thrown the first punch would they not be allowed to speak of it simply because they are for aggressive crit racing?
You can choose to not see colour, using a double negative shows your mindset. Try it.
Raising your (racing) issue with another need not bring in any other factor other than the issue itself. Seeing the other is of a different race and gender, and what ever else one chooses to add into the mix, clouds the original issue one may have had durin the race.
Not sure how this fits in with the proposed (by others in the thread) racist issue of this specific circumstance, the crit race fisticuffs.
If I make a correct assumption, you are seeming to want to bring in legacy issues pertaining to cultural differences between different races and genders as in general life. This is you taking the topic far off. But regardless of what the circumstance is, interacting with another can occur without colour (and gender, and whatever other flavourant you want to include). Again, try it.
Here is my issue with even implying racism when nothing racist has been said or done:
What if Hernandez said “You are racist against me since I am Hispanic!”
And Williams says “No, you are racist since I am black!”
As far as I am tracking nobody has said this, I am only using it as an example. But the point stands. Without evidence, these are just ugly accusations that help nobody and further no causes. Worse, it becomes a boy who cries wolf issue and makes people doubt real racism when it does happen.
Thats why we must not talk about it, unless it is blatant.
Edit to add: One more example, now we’re on this thread debating racism in cycling without ONE SHRED of evidence that any of this is race based. Potentially creating bad blood on multiple sides. It is just so counterproductive. Even the parties involved haven’t mentioned racism, yet people are mentioning it on their behalf simply because one of the people is black? How is this helpful?
There are absolutely situations we can interact with people without a knowledging color gender whatever. If I’m selling you a cup of coffee race doesn’t matter.
There are other situations that you cannot simply claim to be color blind and wish the problems of color away.
Legacy issues MUST be considered when looking at things like this. They cannot be ignored and we cannot simply claim to no see color. The race issue was not brought up because of what happened in the event, the race issue was brought up because of how people were responding to the incident.
If we look at just the racing, then there are people who look at it an just assume that certain parties are more aggressive because of their race. Those people are wrong. It is also wrong to pretend that race is not a factor in how people are treated because of that and to understand the issues certain people face you must see color.
None of us will love to see the day when we can honestly say I don’t see color.
I’m sorry, but this is both hopelessly naive and inaccurate. We all see race and color….it is now a societal construct. Similarly, we are all racist to some degree…again, much of that is through our societal construct.
How you choose to acknowledge and respond to those situations is what you can control. But to say you can simply choose to not see color is not accurate or realistic.
Well when you’ve openly stated that crit racing is a physical or contact sport, post videos of you and your team actually initiating that contact and then come out with a statement saying you and your team don’t feel safe to me is throwing out the victim card.
Actually he should have said, you “should not” simply not see color. Whitewashing everyone is not an effective approach to diversity and inclusion. One it de-values diversity. Two, acknowledging and celebrating color helps you actually acknowledge and respect your repressed feelings on the matter and then choose to try to be a better human. When you raise children, you don’t, or shouldn’t, correct them when they point out that someone is black or brown. No different with adults. Regardless, as you said, we’re off topic.
I don’t think anyone has tried to make the point the incident had anything to do with race.
The response from us as a cycling community is a different story.
Unless I misread something or missed a post I thought it was brought up in regards to us as a community ( not necessarily this forum) and not the incident.
Yes it was and while Hernandez may have been confrontational after the race he didn’t throw the first punch. Just so I’m clear I don’t agree with anything that happened with this situation but do feel it needs to be discussed openly as it’s an issue in a lot of crits. Not to mention Legion being arguably the most well known crit team in the world I feel they should walk the walk. Also they should understand with fame and success comes scrutiny.
My comment about overlooking racism and what I am talking about had to do with a comment made here.
A post in this thread (not going to quote it and potentially start further argument but its further up in the feed) said that “we can’t overlook racism” and that “the cycling community is not immune from white supremacy”
This comment, while sounding maybe well intended, is absolutely counterproductive and does not help anyone. It simply brings bad blood into things. What if it is racism? Can’t prove it. What if it isn’t? You’ve now made it into a race issue when it wasn’t, and all that does is hurt everyone involved. Not to mention it makes people sick of hearing about race. Plus it clouds the real issue of whether or not the actions were right or wrong.
Unless it is blatant racism, these ugly accusations (even if only implied) and terrible comments about “white supremacy in cycling” (come on, why are we talking about white supremacy with this event???) are just poison.
