If you say you can’t push any harder, I am pretty sure you are working hard enough. You do need to be pretty fresh for these workouts though, as Klaw wrote. IMO, 4x4 with 2 min rest is harder than this. I find that this workout is very close to the effort needed for Seiler’s 4x8/2 intervals. I have no idea about Kaiser+4, but maybe it is just not tuned to your power profile, and actually that is why I like workouts like the 30/15s where the target is just go as hard as you can.
I had the 30/15s up last night. Certainly challenging, but compared to some sessions I’ve done I didn’t find them too bad actually. Max hr was 172/184 = 93.5%.
As has been pointed out you max at 89% of the max HR you’ve given. So you’re in the ballpark.
How much of a warm up are you doing? What’s happening between the first and second set? I find a longer warm up helps me hit the intervals better. You need to be taking it as easy as poss between first and second set , so you are good to go again.
As Seiler himself says. Don’t turn a single workout into a hero workout. So challenging enough but no burying yourself. He even cautions not to push too hard as that blunts the aerobic adaptions. Though obviously if you are are trying to get anaerobic adaptions that’s a different story.
Thanks folks! I did about a 15min warmup with a handful of pickups so I made it to the spot where I wanted to do the workout. I have in the past realized that when I get chronically tired, I cannot get my heart rate elevated as normally, so everything feels a lot harder. I am not sure if this is my poor man’s observation, or I need to do more training at higher % of maxHR to train myself more to get there and ride there. I definitely will keep these on the list in the future
Ha! That’s exactly what my coach says. In his words, ‘Never press the nuclear button just to finish a workout’. His feedback this morning was actually that workout looked verging on too hard, and we’ll consider making it 30/30s in the next block. In the same way, I had to take a 20s backspin 6 minutes into the last of the 4x8 minutes, so it seems likely that unless my FTP goes up >10w, we’re going to pull a few watts from that.
What I am most enjoying is feeling good pretty much everytime I get on the bike, and not knackered all the time. Resting HR has dropped 5 bpm in 3 weeks.
After having done a couple 8/5/3 min VO2Max workouts I decided to try my luck at the 30/15s. Haven’t done those in at least 6 months, so didn’t know what to expect. They look mentally easier on paper.
Workout was 3 sets of 10 x 30/15 with 8 minutes rest in between. Will increase the reps to 13 and reduce rest to 5min over time. Initial goal was to hit 130% of FTP (FTP = 248) on in the 30s of work. I disabled ERG as I find that takes too much time to ramp up/down on these micro intervals.
Result:
It was HARD! I could not get my HR up very high though. Max 172 out of 184. May be due to fatigue as I’m in my 4th and last week of the block before a rest week. I did feel completely gassed and maxed out though. Getting started after every 15s off was pretty tough mentally. More so than I expected.
But I hit every work interval >130%. Most were around 140% and even some up in the 150%.
IF for the close to 40min of work was 0.97 and I hit average power PB’s for this season from 5 to 7 minutes. Think this looks promising for my new FTP test next week.
Would these 140%-ish intensity for the work parts be considered normal, or should I aim higher?
And how fast would you guys advise me to progress to 13 reps and shorter rest?
I was thinking to go for at least 5 minutes of rest between sets. Is that normal, or should I progress to even shorter?
I started at sets of 13 with 5 min rest tbh. If you found hitting 130% straightforward (with the longer rests between sets and 10 intervals per set), I’d personally try to hit 130% with the 3x13s and 5 minute breaks before increasing power.
Are you referring to the completed 4x4/4x8 or the failed 4x8 workout?
The 4x4 I max out at 90%, 92%, 92%, 93%.
The completed 4x8 I max out at 89%, 91%, 92%, 93%.
The failed 4x8 I max out at 93% for first and 94% for second (failed) interval.
All of those have an extensive warm-up (4x8 has close to a 40 min warm-up), and a 40% cooldown interval between 8min blocks.
On my best day, I think I would have struggled to complete 4x8 with 300W target, so the power is on the high side. I feel 290-295W would be more attainable for me. My FTP estimate is 270W based on a number of 20-40min efforts in Oct-Dec, but based on a Zwift race from 2 days ago, it should be a handful of watts higher. The FTP doesn’t really make any difference here though, nor does the percentage at which I execute the workout. I’ve found a range of 286-300W in which I can work with, which is the goal
That particular day the workout was on a Thursday (end of week) and wasn’t quite feeling it, but wanted to attempt anyway as I wanted to find the ceiling. Subsequently, we’ve adjusted both intensity and moved to Tuesdays, when I’m freshest, and most prepared mentally.
Good, yeah I figured. Like I said and you hinted at, power was one part of it, but there was a large mental component as well. It was good to fail actually, and know how the limit felt (mental/physical). But next time I would make a few changes, including either skipping the workout altogether if I’m not feeling great (mentally/physically), or lower the intensity a few watts to manage completion.
That’s what I’ve done on my 30/15. If I don’t feel up to it I’ll either move it from morning to evening. Otherwise I may wait till the next day. Sometimes I’ve started and realised it’s not happening and stopped in first set. Then tried next day and it’s gone great. I’ll apply same reasoning as I try these 4 x 8 min for a change.
I did a max effort on Zwift to test ‘real world’ FTP. My instructions were to find a flat-ish course of 7-10 minutes and do sufficient laps that the whole effort would take 45-60 minutes. I averaged 268W for just under 52 minutes. We rounded FTP to 270.*
My 4x8s are set for 295W. I managed the first 3 (averaged 298W), then had to take a 15s backspin after 6 minutes in the last one. I think about 290 is more realistic for me. FYI HR hit 169, 173, 175 and 177 across the intervals, so 92, 94, 96 and 97% of max).
I have held 300w across 4x8 outside with 4 minute rests.
worth noting that the ramp test puts me at 286, which I reckon I could hold for 20 minutes, maybe 22-23.
172 out of 184 is 93.5% , so you’re getting your HR high enough. Potentially a little too high. Pretty sure I read that if you push the HR too high you blunt the adaptive response. Plus just a small increase in HR when above 90% can make the time to recover much longer. It’s a fine balance to be sure.
I find 3 mins recovery between sets worked well. Means you start the second and third sets at slightly higher HR and get into the >90% HR max territory earlier into those sets.
Thanks for the numbers! Yes, we are very similar indeed, almost identical.
My top 20 minute power numbers are 281W (during a 25 minute test Jan 2nd, I felt I could have given it a bit more), 284W (Wednesday’s 19 minute race, so it includes a minute of very low power at the end), 284W (first 20 minute of a 45+ min race end of October, but I imploded 22 minutes into and power drops to around 220-230W). The first effort had an extended warm-up, including all-out blow out efforts, so it was effectively a 25 minute FTP test. The second effort had a ~40m warm-up as well. The last one (from October) had no real warm-up, so has an anaerobic impact at the beginning.
Based on this week’s race, I averaged 299W for 19m, and with a more even pacing strategy I have no doubt I’d be able to sustain 300W for 20m. I have not done a ramp test though, and won’t do one anytime soon, as my next test will be 20m (personal preference).
If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you and what do you weigh? Really curious how close our numbers are! Even our max HRs aren’t too far off!
If you’re talking about VO2max, whomever ever said that is wrong. The largest increases in VO2max reported in the literature are found in studies in which individuals didn’t hold anything back.
Now if whomever said it was talking about molecular signaling, they clearly don’t know the difference between possible determinants of an outcome, and the outcome itself.
I’ve got a climb that’s very local to me. It takes me five and a half mins to climb at 115% ftp average.
1st 45 seconds are fairly steep and then it flattens somewhat. It really suits going out of the saddle for this steep bit then settling in seated for the remainder.
I figure this first section which by it’s nature can be up to 150% ftp is ideal for quickly getting my HR up before settling in for the remaining time.
Anyone think this approach is misguided?
For that “failed” workout - you simply went too hard if you hit 93% at the end of 8 mins; at least that is my impression after doing this workout many times and looking at the results of others.
