I read that - and heard it mentioned in his YouTube stuff as well…I must be an anomaly then because the difference in interval quality I can produce on 2 vs 4 mins rest is er….enormous! 
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I gave it a go. Managed to hold 110%, I have to say though, its possibly some of the hardest work I’ve done on the bike.
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8min @ 108% sounds pretty contradictory to Seiler’s whole “too much pain and not enough gain” criticism of sweet spot. Sounds like a ton of pain, and I’d imagine you aren’t at VO2max for at least half the interval.
What are you gaining here that you couldn’t gain from 3min @ 120%? Or better yet, 30/15s @ 120-130%? I mean, those suck too, but not 8 min suck.
Seiler doesn’t prescribe a percentage. The intervals are to be done at “best average power.” Which means what you averaged the 32 minutes of work. I really like these intervals once I figured out how to pace them. Start a little easier and build each repeat. Everyday is different and if you try and just hold the exact power you think you could average straight away, you run the risk of overreaching early and failing the workout.
Here are a few of the workouts I’ve done…
1st workout. Was carrying high fatigue here from a camp the week before. Thought I could avg 315 so started lower and it was a good thing I did because I could not avg 315 that day.
Laps: 307, 309, 308, 313
Avg: 309.25
1 week later
Laps: 311, 317, 321, 327
Avg: 319
1 week later
Laps: 312, 317, 323, 333
Avg: 321.25
In the last two workouts the hardest interval was probably the first one. Starting easier not only makes the workout more enjoyable, but I was most likely able to do more work by doing it that way.
One other thing he says is that you can actually do these too hard. Trying to stick too much to a number could lead to going to hard rather than listening to your body and effort. That’s also why he says to repeat these over and over for a few weeks. You get better and better at pacing them (on feel).
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Would it be worth adding an extra interval if its doable. Feel like rather than raising the power I could just about manage another 8 minutes. Definitely though it got me to a very high HR, which I appreciate as a lot of workouts just don’t
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I feel like 4x10 approaches Lamark territory though.
Pretty sure Chad says that if you can hold a wattage for 10 minutes four times with that little rest, for training purposes, you can use it as FTP
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110% of a TR ramp protocol FTP is going to be damn hard. If you have a 40-60 min max sustainable power, perhaps derived from the Kolie Moore Empirical Cycling FTP test or a straight up hour of power session, 110% would be much more doable.
I test using Kolie actually because it’s just more manageable for sweetspot work
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Just a question. Are people doing these intervals using power or heart rate ? If I am not mistaken it should be done at heart rate …
Also I would assume cadence would play a significant role as a heavy or low cadence will blow you up earlier than spinning to get the heart rate up ? Doing this intervals at a cadence of 100 plus vs doing them at 70 or 80 would cause muscular fatigue?
Was the rest or recovery period based on the hear rate dropping ? Also athletes was rested prior to each session ?
In would assume this test is done at heart rate and should “not” be done using a percentage of ftp ?
Also did he specify anything around the recommended cadence ? I heard from some athlete this should be done at a high cadence with heart rate and the power during the sessions is " irrelevant " …
I’d have to look back but from memory I think it was based entirely on feel, as in, go again when you’re ready - no timer and no heart rate readout.
I can’t remember what the work bout prescription were.
Mike
4 x 8 with 2 min recovery.
The work bout is done at the ‘maximal sustained effort’. The study cohort was male cyclists. Here is the reference:
That simple description of ‘max sustained’ was then boiled down to 4 x 8 at 105-110% FTP as a starting guide because most folks seem to want a power number target not an RPE or self paced target.
In reviews of recovery periods for different sports, 1 min between longer intervals (4-8 min for discussion) was not enough. 2 min was sufficient and longer is probably not needed physiologically.
FWIW, having tried 4 x 8 at 105% with 2, 4 and 8 min rests, the 2 was not enough for me, 4 was OK on good days, 8 was a bit too long (4:1, 2:1, 1:1 ratios).
Seiler has a nice compilation of information around rest periods in a review available at Research Gate. It is a PDF from July 2017. This link will probably break but y’all can apply some Google and find it quickly.
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I have also tried the above with the same rest periods. I found that 2minutes was not enough to get through the intervals properly. 8 minutes was way too long. I have so far settled for a 4-6minute rest period. 5 minutes seems to be my go to at the moment for an 8 minute VO2 effort at 106% FTP.
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Thought I’d add some commentary on the 30 / 15 intervals that have been mentioned. I spent 2020 doing those intervals and the rest of my sessions as Seiler Z1 outdoors.
I rotated my intervals from 3 x 8 x 30 / 15 to 3 x 13 x 30 / 15 over three week periods. Then a recovery week with a ramp test at the end. It was the only interval session I did. I did it twice a week from Jan 2020 to July 2020. Then I’d do 2 or 3 hour Seiler Z1 sessions outdoors the rest of the time. I did do one Z1 session on turbo at 2 hours 17 mins watching a film. But other than that Z1 outdoors is much more engaging. Overall about 10 hours per week.
My FTP lifted by 30% over those 7 months. Admittedly I was coming out of a few weeks easy recovery over Nov / Dec 19.
From July I reduced the high intensity to once a week. All possible 2020 events from me, had now been cancelled, postponed. So been in maintenance mode since. I found my ftp was still climbing despite the reduction to one high intensity a week.
As others say it’s about solving the equation. So I simply adjusted the intensity of the 30 second on intervals till I was hitting 90-95% max HR by the end. I didn’t worry what percentage of ftp they were. Just that they forced me into 90% HR max territory.
In terms of outdoor average speed I am now 1.5 mph faster (than a year ago) for same HR when riding in Seiler Z1. I have some regular circuits in lockdown that I rode last year. So happy I’m comparing like with like. With no events at moment I have no data on averages at higher intensity outdoors. I have recently done a ramp test and am 10% down on my summer peak ftp. But then my weight is also down 10kg. I plan to kick off working on it again in March.
The 13 x 30/15 are effective at getting me to spend a good amount of time around 90% HR max. The 15 second recoveries don’t allow the HR to drop much. I did 3 min recoveries between the sets. I’m new on forum, so will post image of my HR during these intervals when it allows. Edit - seems I can upload an image right away. So he you go. Here’s how my HR looks over those 30/15 intervals. The peak in the third set is 92% of my max HR.
I’m keen to try the 8 min intervals and see how they go. I’ll likely do it on feel rather than fix the power. I need to solve the equation for these like I did for 30/15.
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I like doing 3(10x40/20’s) with 5 minutes rest between each block of micro intervals. Those got me really fit for MTB XC racing. I alternate between doing those and 4x5minute VO2 intervals once per week. At 53 years old and also doing some running I can only do these once per week. All my other rides are in Seiler zone 1 or else I’d be toast. I could probably handle them twice per week if I wasn’t adding in the run training.
Yeah I’m 54 heading to 55 this year.
I certainly don’t normally exceed two intervals sessions a week, 2-3 days apart. As I found out last summer my ftp was still climbing when I went to one high intensity a week. I’d like to explore that more this year. What is the minimal amount and frequency of intensity I need to increase my ftp? What’s the minimum amount and frequency to sustain it?
That’s brilliant. I’ve been doing 30/30,'s but my HR drops too much so after reading your post Ill have a go at the 30/15’s. Did you up the cadence at at the start of each ‘on’?
Yes, when I see it is 2 seconds from start of an on interval I up the cadence. You may need to adjust the intensity of the on interval to get your HR in the right range during each set. If I found myself hitting 95% or even 97% max at end of third interval then I’d knock the intensity down 5% or so next time. I’m usually happy if my third set of intervals ends somewhere between 91-93% max HR. But once you’ve found it, it works really well at keeping the HR up. Almost like it’s a much longer interval when you look at the HR trace.
If it’s working you should see a gradual drop in HR over a 3 week block of sessions etc. You can either wait for a retest or what I sometimes do is nudge the intensity up if I see the HR is consistently down over two consecutive sessions.
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I have 4 ‘types’ of interval sessions scheduled in my (broadly polarized) plan.
The first is 4x8 @ 108% FTP, with 2 minute breaks. This was pretty brutal. I needed a 15s backspin 6 min into the last one.
The second type is 40s @ 127% FTP, 20s easy, x10, 5min endurance pace, repeat x3 (total of 30 micro bursts). This was also horrible, but I completed it.
I haven’t got to the other 2 yet, as there’s only 1 interval session a week.
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So which intensity (percentage of FTP) does Seiler suggests for 4x16,4x8, 4x4 and 3x(13x3)?