The deceit is real.
Going to really work on the smoothness of my pedalling and power output so that i can perform these types of workouts outdoors as well - when this lock down finishes that is.
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True, and one key reason the Wahoo ERG smoothing is sooooooo bad!
It masked this issue instead of highlighting it as a potential issue, and something to be addressed by the rider. Seeing the direct power data exposes these kinds of problems so we can work on them.
Not many people pay attention to cadence, which is a mistake. It should be the primary focus when using ERG mode and getting the most from it. That helps the rider to learn control, but also keeps the trainer and controlling app working as best as possible.
Variable cadence just leads to a host of problems unless that is specifically what you are aiming to address. In this case, that floating cadence happened and was ignored as the pretty ERG graph from Wahoo gives the false impression of a workout nailed.
You’ll find that at certain power levels you are smoother at a certain cadence, but at others you may be smoother with a different cadence. Power spikes don’t bother me though, they are just a fact of life
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When I got started with Kickr (wheel-off) I thought having laser focused power training would produce better results. I have a very different opinion now.
Not sure what happened on that Zwift ride. I’d ignore it unless it happens repeatedly.
I don’t have experience with Snap but understand its a bit different experience versus the wheel-off direct-drive Kickr that I’m using. For what its worth this is what I currently do:
- goal: setup trainer to more closely replicate the experience of riding outside
- turn off Wahoo power smoothing
- use TR PowerMatch to measure and record power from Stages crank-based power meter
- use either Erg mode or Level/Standard mode (Bluetooth only)
- gearing is big chainring and middle of cassette
- always work on improving pedal stroke/efficiency
That most closely replicates riding outside. And its the same power source for both inside and outside.
In another thread I recently compared outside training ride at threshold to indoor trainer workout at threshold:
Bottom line: inside power with my setup is smoother than outside power, but close enough. In the real world power is going to fluctuate a lot more than on the trainer. Hitting precise targets on the trainer might work for a robot, but your body isn’t a robot. Train like you ride outside.
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my feeling as well from looking at that cadence, but its only one ride and you never know…
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Personally switch off erg mode and learn to pedal smoothly think of keeping the stroke nice and smooth as if you’re drawing a perfect circle with your feet. Try to work in a range. Over time you will become smooth without erg and avengly you will have be able to keep the power smooth even outside it just takes a bit of practice, learning what gear to be in how to brace your body. Here is the file from my ride today which was outside to let you see that a fairly smooth power line is possible. The smoother you are the less it will cost on a physiologic side
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I ´ve found this Video from Shane Miller:
[LINK]
He shows a effort interval with and with out smoothing the power data.
At the 2nd screenshot he sows the raw-powerdata and as you can see, the smoothing is just on the display and doen´t affect your performance.
Do i get it correct?
@Mitch54321 @ellotheth @GiacomoRz @iLLucionist @mcneese.chad @rjessop @bbarrera
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yes.
As I understand it from TrainerRoad, turning on power smoothing may impact PowerMatch. A minor impact may not be noticed. I train with Wahoo power smoothing off, and TR PowerMatch. Works fine.
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It mainly affects the display. But my issue with it is that it masks and hides poor pedaling cadence and stability, that shows in cases like this one.
It keeps people from really learning what they are and are not doing well, so it inhibits improvement.
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exactly. When “pedaling bricks” (a small push over the top) my power graph is “rough” (but still less than outside). If I then smooth out my pedal stroke, I can see power become smoother.
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I’m pretty sure that is still ‘smoothed’, because the sampling rate for the TP graph is pretty low. There are a lot of data points to fit into the small graph, so they average some, which is what smoothing essentially is.
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yes TrainingPeaks smooths by default.
@Aaron_Wright you can turn off smoothing in the app:
Tap the control in top-right of graph, and then the first slider needs to be dragged to the left as I’ve shown in the screenshot.
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It depends… if it’s smoothed by the power meter (the trainer) the risk is that TrainerRoad, smoothing it again, will make it look artificially flat (and at sweet spot, the cumulative smoothing might be so much that you might even be doing over-unders :S)
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Here’s me on the Fuego Flats part of Zwift for 12 minutes and 30 seconds. I chose this because it’s flat and has no resistance changes. Average power is right in the middle of my endurance zone though I’ve done similar tempo efforts before. The key is smooth cadence, focus on that. The only meaningful power changes are where there is a slight change in gradient. I left the bike in one gear and you can see that as cadence slowly tapers over the whole interval power slowly tapers too but things are smooth. This is without ERG, just free riding, so just keep it up and don’t let Wahoo make you doubt yourself
Here’s another from the Zwift short KOM climb right near the ports
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Pretty sure Strava does a lot of smoothing. What does that look like in TrainerRoad?
Some smoothing, Strava mobile is better than Strava web page (scaling issues).
I just see a scaling issue. Here’s from Strava desktop for the second effort on the climb. The desktop version shows less spikes maybe. Strava uses a different min and max so the line looks flatter. The top of the TR chart is like 600, Strava is 1125
A quick update here.
So my cadence and pedalling technique was definitely not optimal at all! I was 100% a masher. Going high and getting fatigued and dropping really low and repeating.
I turned power smoothing off and did some workouts focusing on technique and applying consistent pressure and maintaining a steady cadence.
To do this properly I’ve found that I need to pedal slower and average 80 rather than 90+. Once I can do this I can start to increase the RPM. I know TR mentions not to have a high cadence during workouts if technique fails but stupid wahoo power smoothing was telling me my technique was fine at 100rpm 
The good news however is that I’m not as worse off as I thought. I just did a 100k group ride on zwift in normal resistance mode, at a decent but not crazy heart rate and averaged around 226 watts for 2 hours 20 mins.
Focusing on the cadence and technique kept my power lines much closer together. And I think my current ftp of 260 on TR is fine and I don’t need to reduce it. I knew those heart exploding v02 sessions on here hadn’t been for nothing.
You’re right though, had I not discovered this issue from wahoo power smoothing it would have seriously impeded my progress going forward.
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The purple line is the power btw. Much more tight now