I think this is exactly what @TristanDeSade implied, though. We all know that most carbon frames are manufactured in China and Taiwan. Inconsistent quality is a problem, but if you stick with a major manufacturer, you at least have a recourse.
From the phrasing it sounded like avoiding Chinese brand all together. I mean the Chinese brand are up and comingā¦All the ones you can name (Yeoleo, Winspace, Farsportsā¦etc.) are definitely well-known for a reasonā¦
My dad still remembers trashing on Japanese cars but only buys honda/toyota nowadaysā¦I guess I am just saying yeah donāt buy the any brand youāve never heard of or have any knowledge of. Any known brand with a good reputation should be fine.
Iām onboard with this too. Specialized are a deep pocketed US company. They know if they put out parts/bikes that fail and a class action happens, theyāre toast. They also employ real engineers who are trained to Masters and PhD level in composites, Finite Element Analysis etc. Iām avoiding the brands that just have a ādesignerā who sketches up some shapes and gets some samples put together at a Chinese factory and chooses the best feeling one. I want to know that data was gained from analysis, and that controlled lab testing was done to scientifically choose the shapes and layup.
Also, regarding Canyon and CT scanning. I work in high end medical equipment manufacturing, and have done for 20 years. You can either have a poor process for making your widget, and test every one, because you have no confidence. Or you can have good processes with validation, that allows you to inspect far fewer widgets, to know that the whole population is meeting specification.
If Giant/Specialized/Trek make frames in batches of 1000, and destructively test (i.e. break) 5 of them per lot, but have the process (incoming materials inspection, layup, resin, weights, temps, pressures etc, maybe a non-destructive torque test) so controlled that itās consistent, then thereās no need to test more frames. Look at Toyota making cars. They donāt crash test every other car coming off the line, they just do a few, and then control the process and maybe do a little random sampling.
My next bike will probably come from brands such as Specialized, Santa Cruz, Giant, Trek and ones similar. It wonāt come from Orbea, Felt, Raleigh, Fuji and some of the others that have smaller engineering teams. And Iāll only buy Easton, Specialized, Enve, Bontrager etc carbon bars, posts, stems.
If you are sold on carbon, consider Calfee. Frames are lugged tubes.
That.
More tests at the end <> good quality. As we say around here about quality management, testing is the safety net. And when youāre riding on the safety net, youāre not doing a good run (a ski racing saying).
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This is SO well articulated. A pragmatic and balanced explanation of how companies of differing size prioritize & respond when faced with the same types of issues - both existing and potential.
What you said will really hit home to those with first hand experience in each of these different altitudes. If we assume each company of different size has equally good intentions, their choices will still be limited by their resources. How they assess risk will be based on what they have to gain or lose.
Often times, we see the well-intentioned smaller companies bend over backwards to resolve one-off issues after they happen. Itās common to see younger players aim to please while growing, and provide after-the-fact quality service in exchange for the quality they may not have been able to offer in the first place due to their resourcing constraints ā as inefficient this may be. I think lots of customer who support smaller business do so for various reasons, with this quality of service being one of them.
That said, of course as a company grows bigger & richer the problems scale with it. More to protect means more preventative measures, risk mitigation, and CYA.
Some might colloquially refer to this as āPuff Daddy Economicsā.
And often times in a big company, the massive resources deployed to tackle those big problems trickle down to the customer invisibly. Usually going unnoticed and unthanked. Itās only when the problems fall through the cracks that we as customers see it on the other endā¦ and uproar ensues, when in truth every company will have issues.
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Also, my two additions into the pot that have yet to been discussed:
- Pinarello:
Often criticized for their heavy frames in the weight weenie world. Iām making a leap here, but all that extra carbon is surely there for a reason, and maybe safety is the one argument where the extra weight serves to Pinarelloās advantage. Iāve seen the old 65.1 cut-ups and the criticisms from Luescher, but to someoneās earlier point I donāt know what is considered structurally good or bad because he doesnāt go into depth. I havenāt seen if the new models have improved the internal cosmetics.
Fausto made a point in Peloton Magazine that he wants to build frames that are safe so he can sleep at night. FROM INSIDE PELOTON: PINARELLO - Peloton Magazine
- Factor
https://factorbikes.com/inside-factor-bikes/
Perhaps just another PR video to give customers confidence in their scary-light frames, but they focus on frame safety in their interview. One of the key points they make is that because Factor has more control of their factory line and smaller sized skilled personnel, they are able to get away with less carbon in their layup, whereas other companies need to bake in āinsuranceā in their lay-up in order to cover for the manufacturing tolerance variations that occur with a bigger, more unwieldily workforce. (Maybe thatās whatās going on with Pinarelloās weight?)
That said, Factor is the one company that puts the āDo not sitā stickers on the top tube of their flagship frames, so anyone with deep concerns for safety (whether rational or irrational) is better off with a completely different frame altogether. But hey, at least Factor being open and honest about what they offer surely stands for something.
Lastly, Iād prefer to not rathole into the topic about eastern manufacturingā¦ but I have faith in Taiwanese manufacturing. Especially when it comes to bicycle parts. What I observe is many confuse China with Taiwan/HK/Singapore, and that whole region becomes guilty by association. US geography and history.
Le sigh. (tipping my hat to Look/Time)
Thatās equally simplistic. Japanese car manufacturers had to prove themselves, and the cars they initially brought to market were lackluster and not adapted to the local markets. E. g. the ones my parents looked at in the 1980 did fit not the standard bottle trays in the trunk and they didnāt get one for that reason (although quality-wise they were already good). But the Japanese learnt quickly and adapted, and now offer products made for specific markets. (I should mention I am a permanent resident of Japan.)
Chinese manufacturers equally still have to prove themselves. Right now āthe ones you can nameā you can name, because you can order them cheaply on Alibaba et al. But you are missing e. g. local distribution to deal with warranty claims and proper design teams, for instance. Obviously, all of this would reduce their cost advantage. (At least in Japanese culture, copying is not frowned upon as much as it is in the West. Not sure about China.) I have no doubt they can do that, but so far they are just getting their foot in the door. Right now Chinese manufacturers are leveraging their strengths, which lies in manufacturing, not design or distribution or anything else. And I canāt fault them for that, thatās how you get the foot in the door.
Plus, even on Amazon knock-off products are a huge problem, so getting authentic parts on Alibaba and the like from Chinese brands will be hard once one of them takes off, and when you place your order, you might get a Yolo frame rather than an authentic, high-quality Yeoleo frame.
At this point I wouldnāt get a Chinese off-brand frame or wheelset at the moment, but ask me again in 10 years. Oh, and when some people speak of āChinese carbonā thatās racist and simply unacceptable. But I donāt think I have seen that in this thread.
And to be honest we have a plethora of models, from companies like 3T and Open that are deliberately kept small, have frame design chops and outsource manufacturing to companies like Rotor or Look that made their name because of their manufacturing prowess. We live in great times, me thinks.
Lol I donāt think anyone is bringing up about anything related to racism.
We are agreeing on most part from your post. In regarding warranty and distributionā¦If people in the U.S. buys Canyon I donāt see how is that different. I just happen to have pretty good experience with the wheelsets from Farsports. 4000km later with no issues so far.
Honestly, instead of Chinese bike frames, I am more looking forward to Chinese tapping into power meters so more people can affordable power meters. Thatād be something. Happy Friday 
No, but I felt I had to bring it up for completeness. Very often when this topic is discussed there is more than a tinge of racism. Not here, though.
Thatās a fair point, and thatās why Canyon bikes are cheaper. For other companies you have a choice: I could buy from 3T directly or order one of their bikes from my LBS via the Japanese distributor (for a significant mark-up). Iām still leaning towards the latter, because I want to support my LBS. In Europe, though, you do have direct support from Canyon (thanks to the magic of the EU), but you will have to take it up with them rather than have your LBS deal with it. However, I would still say that Canyon has a full-fledged engineering department and does its own development, so their situation is not completely comparable to up-and-coming Chinese manufacturers.
To be honest, they have missed the boat on power meters. Entry-level power meters are so cheap that I donāt see much of an advantage by going for a Chinese manufacturer because of price. Power meters will be integrated in cranksets before too long, so entering that market makes little sense ā unless you eventually want to produce your own groupsets.
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Oh itās definitely comingā¦
Which brand are you talking about? Could you name a few? I have been trying to get my buddies into power based training but they were intimidated by the cost of entry.
4iiii and Stages. My 4iiii left-only power meter cost me $300 including crankarm, and I would have spent less if I went for a 105 crankarm (which would mismatch my crank, so I spent a few extra $$). I went for 4iiii, because someone had a coupon that I could use. If you subtract the cost of the crank, then a 4iiii dual-sided power meter costs about $500. An XCadey XPower-S spider-based power meter also costs $300. Yes, it is a proper left-right combined measurement, which is better than left-only, but it isnāt cheaper.
Once Shimano and SRAM just integrate power meters as a matter of course, I reckon the prices will be even cheaper since the power meters no longer have to be grafted on them.
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How does a bike brand know theyāve designed a bike which is strong enough to not fail under regular real world conditions? (And equally one that isnāt so over designed in some areas that youāre carrying around 500 grams of carbon that you donāt need on the top tube, as the chain stays will fail well before the toptube?)
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How does a bike brand know that the 1000th and 15,000th frame they make will perform as well (be as strong, flex the same so it rides the same, weigh the same etc) as that first magical one they made?
The answer to 1), is engineering design, using tools such as CFD, FEA, controlled lab testing etc. The answer to 2) is process controls (having settings, ranges etc, quality sampling etc) that make sure youāre doing it the right way.
If you get 1) done right, then you know your Tarmac SL8 will never break when being ridden by 99.9% of riders on 99.9% of roads ā¦ but you know that if you put the 0.1% heaviest rider on it, and put them on the roughest 0.1% of roads, the whole thing will break at once (as whats the point of having chain stays that break with a 500 lb rider, but a seat stay that can take a 1000 lb rider?). The publicās drive for the 750 gram road bike frame means that they want the one that is just strong enough that it never breaks, but not overbuilt that itās 800 grams.
And then you get 2) right, and you donāt need to CT scan bikes, you donāt need to destructively test every second frame you make.
So who has great engineering design and process controls? Specialized appear to. Others will too, but itās hard to really know for sure. Do the aliexpress sellers of $300 carbon frames, will not have these abilities. Sometimes they counter this by making a 1000 gram frame that could have been 800 grams if it has good 1 & 2. By throwing more carbon in there, itās now strong enough (but over engineered in some areas) and the process controls arenāt so important, as the frame is twice as strong as it needs to be, so even the one that only got 90% of the resin it needed, is still 110% as strong as it needed to be.
So if you want the cutting edge lightweight frame that wonāt break, then youāre saying you want Tarmac SL7 or similar. If you are okay with heavier and prefer saving money, then you could get a SL7 knockoff that has 50% extra carbon in there, and youāll probably be okay ā¦ probably, but nobody knows, as nobody built 100 and tested them
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Do you have any insider knowledge regarding Specialized? Iām not saying anything good or bad about them, itās just I have no knowlege how their engineer design or process controls work besides some marketing statements. And arenāt the bikes made by Merida in Taiwan?
This is correct, and Merida is under a non-compete clause from Specialized to not sell their brand in the US market. All CyclingTips articles on Meridaās have a āNot available in USAā tag, which is homage to the non-compete.
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Wattbike?
Itāll be interesting to see if any crank manufacturers will take up Sensitivus on their claim that they can provide the basic elements, including control apps, to any crank manufacturer for cheap.
I definitely have a basis for Specialized. I base this off snippets in a few articles here and there (that mention FEA, CFD and their wind tunnel), job board postings for engineers at specialized, and a look at their LinkedIn profile showing their employees (background and training).
I have a dislike for a number of brands because when I do hear about their design team, itās just one or two unqualified people who essentially guess. (Note, Iām an engineer who deals in design and manufacturing of medical devices. I actually really enjoy this stuff. So Iām super biased to testing, process controls. Less emotional/feeling based design ā¦ āIt looks fast and strongā ā¦ Iām more ātesting a sample size of n has shown that we have 99% confidence that 99.5% of the frames are not going to fail when ridden in 99.9% of the real world conditionsā ā¦ more that sort of thing.
I would love to read a summary of some of the times Specialized got it wrong. Remember the SL2 Tarmac had a fork recall? Who got it wrong then? Was it a type 1 issue where they designed it wrong and somehow their R&D testing didnt catch it? Or was it designed right, but some process variation wasnāt noticed and they made some that were too light and didnt have enough meat in the right spots?
I bet someone will read this and think āno, Bobby is a custom frame builder whoās been making beautiful frames for 40 years and never had one break. Heās a real artistā. From my engineering point of view, Bobby is unlikely to be making the frame on the lower limit of weight, because he canāt know how overbuilt it is. And equally if he released a new model and it was right on the limit, so maybe one in 10 frames will fail when they hit a speed bump at speed ā¦ if he only built 5 prototypes, and itās a 1 in 10 failure ā¦ how would he know?
In truth, most companies probably overbuild their frames. As I look at higher and higher end bikes that are built lighter and lighter, then I want to know theyāre based on methodical design/development, and rock solid process controls. If 850 grams is where the SL7 S-works is (Iām guessing), then once you get up to 1250 grams, then I think the margin of error is wider and Iām not as worried. But for sure, Iām not buying a no-name Aliexpress knockoff of and SL7 that weighs 800, 900 or even 1000 grams.
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Iāve ended up in hospital twice following crashes and neither has had anything to do with my bicycle. Even all the minor ones Iāve had have been either external or user error. Never had or seen a crash due to the bike. I know they happen, but they must be really rare.
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