Recommended structure for VO2max workouts?

Is it though? I would agree that their approach to overall training and goals are different. But VO2 max is VO2 max. I’m not sure I agree with the idea that there are different types of VO2 max. Different riders are going to utilize their VO2 max differently. And maybe I’m focusing on semantics, but VO2 max is about maximum O2 uptake and utilization, not about power targets or time durations. So it’s not like a crit racer should do 30/30s and road racers should do 5x5s. Shouldn’t you do the workouts that will maximize O2 uptake? I would agree that specificity is beneficial. And you could benefit at improving certain parts of your power curve relevant to your event type. But I don’t think I would agree that there are different VO2 max purposes for different riding styles.

Edit: And this was meant to be a discussion. Not refuting anything. I’m not a physiologist. I guess my thought is that different types of riders might utilize their VO2 max differently, that is a crit rider doing on/offs vs a long distance triathlete doing long steady state. But every rider across any discipline gets a benefit by pushing their VO2 as high as possible. So different disciplines don’t need different VO2 workouts because they all should have the same goal.

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I think this is the inherent problem with having both a scientific term and a set of workouts with the same name. Same goes for Threshold (which brings about the “hour power vs. training zone target” arguments).

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i think we’re getting lost in differences between race prep work one would do with on-offs, and the vo2 work needed to push threshold ceiling up. there’s a time and place for both, and I’d imagine at this time of year folks are focused on improving threshold. just because one is a crit racer or cyclecrosser doesn’t mean one shouldn’t do 3-5min work if threshold tte is well developed. i think most training concepts are pretty universal for most disciplines

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within reason, but i think coaches would agree if the power dropoff is too big (like can’t sustain even threshold) then you’d want to pull the plug, but like in my screenshot, i started as high as 125% and dipped down to 110% on my last effort (same HR and high effort though). And not to be a broken record, I think another key is making sure to take time to recover and not be strictly adherent to any particular work/rest ratios

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Or you could just dive straight into the last workout, do it 3 d/wk, and increase your VO2max by 44% in just 10 wk,:

What were their ages? What was their training history?

These things matter.

You could increase your vo2 by 44%, or you could injure yourself?

I know you’re a physiologist and not a coach, but no coach in the world would tell an athlete to jump into 6x5 at vo2 without knowing their training history.

Your context-free proselytizing that “more is more” without context does more harm than good, in my opinion. You have excoriated others in other threads for not considering context and creating confusion. You have the opportunity to be so helpful here, but more often than not you wield your knowledge like a blunt instrument. And you crap on everyone, including our hosts (TR) who provide this forum for free.

The more I read what you write here, the more I believe what Seiler says, “Coaches are 10-15 years ahead of physiologists because they are putting into practice what we haven’t figured out how to measure.”

Don’t bother responding to this note, I won’t read it.

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An oldie but goodie… do we even need VO2?

8 people on low training volume starting with a low vo2 max is not a great sample of endurance athletes to base training off of in my opinion.

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The above questions are, I think, good ones. I didn’t manage to find the full paper, but I did find enough to answer a few questions.

First, it’s worth noting that this is a paper from 1977. Things have moved a looooong way in the meantime. That’s pretty clear from what I was able to read of the paper. I was amused by the paper proper opening with a discussion of rats adapting ‘quite rapidly’ to endurance exercise training. I’m just imagining an expert in rat physiology convincing them to run around fast enough to use the maximum oxygen uptake.

To the crucial questions, though. There were 8 subjects. Two were sedentary. Four had not been training regularly but were involved in recreational sports. One was a college football player who was not currently training (presumably out of season?), leaving only one who ‘performed moderate endurance exercise’ three times a week for years. None of them, thus, are likely to have been very well trained in endurance sports, at least not compared to most of us in this forum. I see no information about their ages in what I have of their paper.

Nonetheless, and I think not surprisingly to many of us on the forums, while everyone’s VO2 max increased, the football player and the endurance athlete, had the lowest increases as a percent compared to their starting point. Without doing the math, I’m sure that this is not statistically significant, though from everything I’ve heard, that isn’t surprising.

More crucial, I think, though it hasn’t been raised, is that this paper seems to say nothing about what type of workout is the best. It is not comparing 6x5min VO2 max training to other lengths. (Again, I only have access to the first two pages, but given what I can see, I don’t expect that to have come up–though perhaps the authors talked later about what they chose that particular effort).

Instead, the paper is purporting to show that VO2 max improvements continue on linearly instead of slowing down. I’ll more than forgive these authors because the research is so early even though we know that that are caps and VO2 max improvements cannot actually keep going up. Heck, I’m pretty sure that the Cog has talked elsewhere in these forums about how you don’t do VO2 max blocks forever. I’ll also forgive the original authors for missing that their most trained (though still not very trained) subjects had the lowest increases, thus raising questions about their paper’s conclusion.

I am sure that other papers can be found arguing for specific VO2 max workouts (though I bet there are different papers with different preferred workouts), but this particular one is not useful for the current discussion.

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This podcast is worth a listen.

The summary conclusion is that longer intervals are better for increasing time trial performance (presumably, also FTP).

“There were no significant difference between the HIIT and SIT group when looking at time trial performance.

However, if one would only look at those in the HIIT group that performed longer intervals (> 4min), then a significant increase in time trial performance of about 2 % could be seen compared to the SIT group.”

But in the big picture, I think the most important thing is to just put in the hard work to get your HR elevated to 95%+ of max for an extended period. And you can do that with 30/30s, or 5 min intervals, or anything in between.

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Last year as last workout of VO2 block I tried to combine both type of intervals.
3x8 30/15s with 2min hard start at about 120%.

I got over 24 minutes at over 90% heart rate and it didn’t feel that hard after a block of long intervals. Breathing never got as hard as 5x4min for example.

No idea how the adaptations compare, has anyone tried anything similar?

As shown in Table 1, he youngest participant was 20, whereas the oldest was 42 (and a colon cancer survivor). If I did my mental math correctly, the average age was 32.

Also as described in the paper, “subjects G and H were very sedentary and had not participated in sports or exercise programs for many years. Subject D was a college football player, not in training. Subject B had performed moderate endurance exercise on a regular basis three times weekly for a number of years. The other subjects had not been training regularly, but were active in recreational sports.”

IOW, a pretty motley crew of individuals probably not atypical of beginner cyclists everywhere.

Overuse injuries are far less common in cycling than in, e.g., running. I have thrown dozens and dozens of previous sedentary individuals (including those 70+) off the deep into arduous (to use TFNYT word-of-the-day) training programs like this, and never seen one.

I am being helpful here by pointing out that if your goal is to increase your VO2max, longer efforts at high intensity are both highly effective and not something you really need to “work up to” by nibbling around the edges with, e.g., 1 or 2 min efforts (which many people find easier entirely because they don’t stress the aerobic system to the same extent).

I’m happy to criticize anyone’s statements anywhere at any time, including TR, when they get things wrong. I live in a fact-based world where if you don’t check your emotions at the door, you’re going to be feeling butthurt all the time.

Finally, you are apparently too young or your knowledge base is too narrow to realize that longer VO2max intervals such as used in Bob Hickson’s classic study have been a staple for endurance athletes since at least the 1960s (e.g., “mile repeats” for runners). IOW, the study simply used what was common practice at the time. Short on/off intervals (e.g., 30/30), as utilized by Zapotek, have been around at least as long. IOW, there’s really nothing new under the sun here.

As the saying goes, those who refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

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Ha! Serves me right for not reading all the way to the end before replying… excellent response.

Now this probably delves more into coaching as opposed to pure physiology, but can you comment on decreasing interval duration throughout a block? e.g. Early 2023 I did a 9 workout block over 3 weeks, going from 3x6 → 4x5 → 5x4 → 6x3:30 → 7x3 throughout the block (My first ever dedicated VO2 block).

N=1 for me, but at 46 y/o without a long / extensive endurance background, fatigue management is/was important. In my case, I almost always feel it and “fail” in my legs first (as opposed to breathing / heartrate) and the shorter interval duration did seem to help from the perspective of “ability to complete”. Now, I probably wasn’t getting the same TiZ, but at the same time, I was (barely) able to finish every workout, usually popping in the last interval…

Just adding, and it looks like it hasn’t been shared yet.

It looks like 30/30 are “better” but when measured, 4-6 min are more efficient.

My takeaway was both works. Good idea to apply variability maybe.

Personally, I only give people short/shorts for pure introduction to hard workouts for basically beginner athletes or for race prep for people who might need those kinds of efforts. I do not focus on 30/15 or 30/30 for VO2max.

I don’t prescribe 2 min intervals very often at all, usually only on day 2 of a back-to-back for people entirely new to VO2max training.

3 min is kind of my bottom. I start at 5-6min, and usually taper downward toward 3. I don’t have one set progression, but rather I tailor it to what I think people need and can do based on age, experience, fitness, etc.

So for @AgingCannon I would probably recommend a couple workouts of 30/15s to learn to push yourself. I will give stuff like 2x12 30/15s which gets you 6 working minutes, so it’s good, but broken up and not quite as hard. I usually do that in the block before proper VO2max work. 2x12 is a starting point, sometimes I’ll give 3x12, 2x14, 3x14, just depends on the person, but most people can manage a 2x12 30/15 even if they’re totally new to it.

The other thing I do before VO2 work for people who need it is a lot of high cadence work (e.g. ramps) so they get used to working at 110rpm for minutes on end.

For newer people, I will usually prescribe back-to-back VO2 days, 3 minutes the first day, 2 minutes the second. 5-7 reps at 3, 7-9 reps at 2. And the rest of the week is very light riding, endurance at most, with no leg strength training. The goal is to maximize the stimulus and then recover from it… but again, you need to be doing these at a high cadence in order to be able to do quality sets back to back like that.

My goal is always to get people up to doing 5 or 6 minute intervals eventually. But as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, and is something Empirical does as well, I will usually start at 5-6min intervals and taper down to 3 min intervals as fatigue builds during a block, not the other way around.

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I was going to post something similar from today’s workout (outdoors)

10m blocks:

30/30s
Recovery
Longer blocks + mix of 10s, 15s, 30s
Recovery (5mins)
Sweetspot

The theory is total stimulus over the block rather than any individual workout. You’re right: the stimulus in the individual workouts is less at the end when you’re doing the 7x3 vs. the 3x6 or 4x5 at the start, but the idea is you’re unlikely to be able to do 9 of those sessions in three weeks, where I can get you through 9 sessions like that by decreasing the interval length.

Physiologically, if everyone could do big blocks of nothing but 3 or 4x6 or 5x5, that’d be great. As you alluded to, most people can’t, so aim for the bigger overall stimulus over the course of the block.

That’s the coaching side of it, as you know.

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I used to do something similar, “progressing” from 6 x 5 min to 10 x 3 min, with a commensurate increase in power.

Then I got a power meter and was able to routinely measure my performance in the field, and stop doing any VO2max intervals shorter than 5 min.

(Similar, I used to go from 2 x 20 min to 4 x 10 min, but stopped doing the latter workout when it proved less effective.)