Unless clamping power for an assessment (make sure power is steady and watch other things move). Otherwise, same. No ERG mode on the road, no ERG mode inside.
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No ERG for me2. ERG is a disaster for me, much more fatigue in the legs. Problem I also have that outdoor I can push tempo zone better then indoors (I hate indoor inertia apparently).
I ride granfondo’s with lots of long climbing so tempo/SST is my area (although I never trained in a progressive or structured way for this).
But if I look at one ride from me (Maybe my best day ever on the bike), that was 2 years ago when I peaked for the Maratona Dolomites in Italy. 5 days before that event I climbed the Passo Stelvio. I had no goal for this climb, just ride and enjoy this great climb. I felt super, I hold myself back and had to say to myself 'how boy, ease off". But I did the climb under 2hours (what is pretty good for me, and not even all-out). But when I look at my data now, skippping the first 10 and the last 10min. I did 100minutes at 252W (90-91% FTP) at an average heart rate of 155 (85% max). And my decoupling was just 2% within that time frame.
I like tempo, SST riding, and I hate everything above 95% FTP :-). So that is why I maybe would try 8 weeks of this tempo block. But I have to add one weekly more intensive (maybe tempo with surges, or a zwift race of 1h30) ride so I train also for my MTB race end of November.
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I’m beginning to realise this for me. Any idea why?
I think the fluctuation in cadence will make the trainer make power corrections constantly to keep the desired wattage. For me it feels like small extra impact on the muscles that result in more fatigue. But for me this is indoor always more the case compared to outdoor riding (n=1)
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I also think that the constant power though out the pedal circle induces extra fatigue. At Z2 that’s not so big a deal, but at Z3 this is definitely noticeable. This affects your muscles different I feel.
By the way, I just started a training block in the style of this thread, mostly focussed on tempo. I had pretty good early season, but after June I had no goals left and just went all in on volume, which kind of led me burned out. I also wasn’t controlling the intensity so I had 4 consecutieve 10-15hr weeks with 4-6 hour rides at 70-75% FTP. And then also a VO2max session every week I was feeling great at the time, but about 3 weeks a go I was really done with it.
I took two weeks of more or less. But now am excited to get going again. No real goal, other than improving general fitness for Gran Fondo riding in the next year. Not racing.
So now I’m reducing volume, also because of reduced daylight ofcourse. But building up the tempo from 80% to 85% in the coming weeks, an also building weekly time in tempo-zone from 90min to maybe 3hr in about a months time. Total weekly volume maybe 8-9hrs.
Is there anything I should pay attention to? Are occasional sprint interval sessions ok, for example during group rides? I also go to the gym once a week.
I have heard some coaches say that it has to do with the lack of “micro breaks” in ERG … which I believes meaning your power drops lower sometimes, etc. and it is more natural like riding a bike.
net/net - there seems to be an opinion that ERG mode is more fatigue inducing for day-to-day training. It is still very practical for testing, etc.
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Everything is “ok” — it is all about balancing max load vs minimum recovery. Sprint intervals are going to up your need for recovery. It just depends what you can take.
Good luck🤘
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One thing that often gets overlooked when comparing ERG to other modes is gearing. Unless a person matches gearing reasonably closely between comparisons, the flywheel speed and related impact may matter as much or more than the trainer mode.
ERG can be used in most gear combos within reason but a few trainers may push someone to higher or lower gearing in order to hit some wattage levels. So starting with that gearing and aiming to compare that in other modes is useful to minimize variables between tests. I know that Resistance and Standard require shifting for power targets (by design), but having a range around the same one used for ERG is best, if the aim is to feel the differences between modes and only that as the variable.
Most trainers can’t actually adjust resistance as fast as many people expect or imply. That is why we can see power variation even with ERG files (assuming massive smoothing is not in use like Wahoo and a couple others do). So there are going to be some “mini-breaks” even with ERG mode. It’s not the perfectly smooth experience many expect.
From the numerous comments I’ve seen over the years in these discussions, most people never consider gearing and I’d bet decent money that the gearing (and resulting flywheel speed/inertia) are not the same. So I take all those comments with a hefty grain of salt unless that was maintained consistent between modes.
Despite that caveat, I do think there are possible reasons that general feel and eventual fatigue may differ between modes. But I expect it to fall into the marginal gains/differences territory rather than high single digit deltas once you match gearing.
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but first…
With that off my mind…
I haven’t done a controlled tempo interval longer than 10 minutes since February, almost 7 months ago.
Average cadence 78rpm and almost 29Nm avg torque.
about 50 minutes of tempo, with a 1-min start around threshold. Bonus 1-min push at the edge of town sprint to bring it home like on a Wed night worlds.
Last night I could have easily done a 1x60, target was 80-90% and I did them by feel:
Felt some tension after the 2nd interval while on the road, but that quickly passed and felt nothing after the ride or this morning.
Previous 1x90 tempo was 11 months ago, on a local HC climb with a 2-minute 18% kickr at the top:
Average cadence of 75rpm + 30Nm avg torque, and all the cadence:
On the topic of low-cadence, just saw this on Strava:
Empirical evidence and some conjecture from Landry Bobo, thank you @brendanhousler
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This. The inertial load has far more to do with how different trainers “feel” and the demands they place upon the body than whether or not they attempt to regulate power demand (ergometer mode).
Sadly, none of the trainers presently on the market come close to replicating the inertial demands of cycling outdoors, even if you use your biggest gear. Even with a 10 kg* flywheel spinning at several thousand rpm, my 30+ y old Velodyne only has ~1/3 the inertia of cycling outdoors.
*Obviously, distribution of mass also matters.
Now with that said, ergometer mode or not, pedaling a trainer steadily indoors is obviously different (more demanding) than cycling outdoors, where we constantly experience relief/“mini breaks”. That’s why in our research studies we’ve always had participants spend some time getting used to the equipment, vs. just slapping somebody on the ergometer and expecting that they are ready for it just because they are a trained cyclist.
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and continuing on the topic of lower cadence efforts, another one hit the inbox today. This one was about long climbs but I use these same techniques riding into a strong/gusty headwind on perfectly flat ground (exactly the conditions last night):
Tip #3: When you slow down, get your feet moving again
There is no perfect climbing cadence. Lower cadences put more stress on leg muscles, and higher cadences shift more stress to the cardiovascular system, driving up heart and respiration rates. The right cadence for you and the situation balances these stresses so you’re breathing is controlled and your leg muscles don’t fatigue too fast. Climbing cadence isn’t static, either. Riders often slow their pedaling gradually as they get tired. Many end up grinding along in a bigger gear than they should because they were focused on the effort or the intensity (perceived exertion) and didn’t realize their actual power and speed were declining.
If you have a power meter on the bike and you realize perceived exertion is high but speed and power are going down, shift down a gear to get your feet moving a little faster. You should see your power output rise (or at least stop dropping) without having to increase your exertion.
Tip #4: Train with power, ride by feel
A power meter is a great training tool, but if you rely on it too heavily it can reduce your ability to self-govern your efforts. In group rides and competitions you have to recognize when it’s time to break from your power zone strategy and dig deep to make the winning move or respond to a critical move. During long rides and multi-day events, you have to be able to feel the difference between ‘sustainable’ and ‘too hard’ when your sea level, full rested, power zones go out the window on Day 4, riding in a thunderstorm at 9,000 feet above sea level.
Tip #5: Trust Your Perceived Exertion and Breathing
Effective climbing is a matter of balancing exertion and comfort, and that balance changes in the middle of ride or even the middle of a climb. To climb at a sustainable pace, your breathing will be labored but it should be deep and rhythmic. If it’s shallow and rapid, you’re above a sustainable effort level. Your perceived exertion should be 7-8 out of 10, perhaps starting at 6-7 on long mountain passes. Check in on these parameters every few minutes, because it’s common for riders to gradually ramp up their effort as a climb progresses.
Article:
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The one setup I do wonder about is the Tacx Neo line. Considering that they use a “virtual flywheel” that is actually using the motor side of their “resistance brake” to propel the rear axle forward is sure interesting.
It’s been ages since I set our Neo 2 up, but I remember setting up rider weight in the Tacx app. My presumption (hope) is that they use that value with some estimated “roll down” calculation to set the propulsion side of the resistance vs inertia equation.
I have no idea if they do that or not, but there at least seem to be some potential to mimic a more accurate inertia experience via the motor than other trainers with fixed mass, size and rpm flywheels.
For physical flywheels, the good old spin fitness bikes and their massive flywheels are likely closer to matching inertia than just about any trainer I have seen. Perhaps some of the physical flywheel smart bikes are also closer than trainers (like SB20) that they may be better in that aspect too.
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@batwood14 @tshortt got interrupted earlier and posted without my question… Those were iso-power around 86% (by feel). Here is HR graph with the bottom of the yellow band = 83% HRmax
so the idea is that by staying below the 83% HRmax cap (rule of thumb, no lactate testing and without individualization), you should be able to string together 2-ish tempo workouts a week, for months and months of base work, correct? And using that rule of thumb, last night’s 2x25-min effort had about 15 minutes ‘in the yellow’ and I should have reduced power in order to promote that long-term consistency of tempo efforts during base. Correct?
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Oh, man … this is a very specific question and you have exhausted my ability to answer with specificity. I’m not a coach, not a physiologist as I’ve espoused repeatedly.
I can probably tell you what I’m doing, and how I would ideally progress … and maybe you could use that as a guide? I’m giving this a full go this year again and have an idea in mind … but, I’m also planning on incorporating weight training starting next week, and have no idea how that will impact me. (I’m starting very slow with body weight exercises, kettlebells, etc. , and I’m an fantastic responder to this type of work with a lot of weight-lifting in my past in my teens and 20s … but I think at some point I’ll raise to the point where fatigue is going to be a crapshoot)
I want to be helpful, but I’m not sure how to do so without giving you bad info. You know?
I did my second 3x30 session today, and already felt a little over-extended …. but I also had a big week las week, so … I don’t know?
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When he had you doing tempo with HRcap, roughly how many per week?
I’m assuming the coaching motivation was to get you to consistently train, you don’t need to answer that part.
I think 3-4 per week. Let’s call it 3 … just for ease.
Here’s how I’m thinking about it in a 5 day training schedule …. And I’m leaving the weight lifting out for now.
MON - off
TUE - big day … I’m starting with 3x30 and then scaling.
WED - 90 - 120 mins mid- Z2 (~40 TSS/hour pace)
THU - semi-day …. Some subset of Tuesday. Maybe 1x45, or 1x60 at tempo … but if feeling tired, maybe do 4x15, etc. Ultimately, you’ll want to hit Tue and Thu at the same level without a ton of fatigue accumulation. Overall time on bike = 2 hours
FRI - off
SAT - 4+ hour Z2 ride … by RPE
SUN - 2-3 hour Z2 ride by RPE with 4x 10 min intervals at tempo around 60 RPM
Eventually the TUE/THU sessions will get longer re: TiZ, and then eventually they’ll be TUE/WED with the Z2 moving to THU.
I’m open to questions as long as you know I likely won’t have answers lol 
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thanks, that answered my question!
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I’m terrified 
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ok, LOL, how about this one… playing fantasy football for the first time in 10 years and I don’t really follow the NFL. Despite that I’m doing pretty well in the league, but I’ve got the Panthers for defense and they have been a major suckage. Dropping them and picking up on waivers tonight, choices are: Dolphins, Falcons, Taxans, Jets, Bengals, Cardinals, Lions, or Colts. Heading out for a ride. Thanks in advance!
#1) Jets defense
#2) Lions
#3) Falcons/Dolphins … I could make arguments for either.
Good luck 
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