Question about "overreaching" / over training / Garmin's tracking

Yup! Until then just trust the process and listen to how your body is responding and feeling. And then keep doing those things even after the metrics catch up.

correct, my conclusion after doing TB1 and TB2 in Fall of 2019 was that I needed to heavily modify TR plans. So I went looking for off-the-shelf plans from other coaches with a different philosophy on base training at 8-12 hours/week. Happy with what I found, then hired a coach to help me optimize and navigate resistance training + cycling.

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“Unproductive” in Garmin basically means “our guesstimate of your VO2 Max went down”. I have no faith in the VO2 number Garmin spits out, so Unproductive (or Productive) is equally meaningless!

I can honestly say that there is zero correlation that I can see between Garmin’s estimate of my cycling VO2 and any other measure of my fitness (FTP tests, races, tapers, PRs, etc). It works better for running, but then generally I find that the relationship between HR and pace in running is much more consistent than the relationship between HR and power in cycling.

Here’s my 530. High aerobic only started moving after doing ss/threshold intervals (90-98%). I’m pretty sure I don’t need a lot of sprint work. It could be a fine model but it would have you train one way all year long.

I’m detraining because we are staying with family right now. I’m riding but I forgot my HR monitor and rides with HR or power are not recognized. Not that I care!

Zero correlation? I can’t say that. Generally speaking, when my FTP ratchets from 220 to 240 to 260 to 280, there is a highly correlated increase in my vo2max. Both Garmin and WKO and physiology formulas all show increasing vo2max with increases in sustainable power output. For example I usually see 4 L/min at 260W FTP, and 4.2 L/min at 280W FTP.

Separate question - is knowing my vo2max estimate useful in cycling? No, for several reasons. But keep in mind FTP basically encapsulates three things: vo2max, % vo2max at threshold power, and cycling economy. I don’t really care about my vo2max estimates.

Along the same lines - is seeing productive or unproductive in Garmin going to influence my training? No. Does it correlate to my training? Yes, although its rather crude but the trends correlate as I posted above.

Opinions aren’t very divergent here are they? :grin:

My experience is different. I have worn a Fenix 6 since about November 1, and found it to be quite acceptable in assessment of Load and Fitness. Moreover, I wear an additional HRM and find its VO2 calculations pretty decent – considering its just an algorithm and not a mask-based lab test.

I have lab tested at 67.9 ml (O2/kg/min), and the Fenix reports consistently between 66-68 when I’m doing hard stuff. To me, that’s quite solid from a watch that so many folks poo-poo.

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No denying that some of the Firstbeat metrics can be hit or miss. They mostly work for me.

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Me too. Maybe I’m just a weirdo.

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In the past I felt similar about using HRV to inform training - it could tell me I shouldn’t train and then I’d go out and nail the workout, recovery, and following workouts. Just never correlated with the reality of what I could do out on the road. I tried using two apps - HRV4Training and Elite HRV. For various reasons I’m giving HRV4T another try, started earlier this week. Not sure why but my HRV data is more variable now versus the very narrow range of values in the past, maybe because I’m doing more zone2, maybe something else. I dunno but seems worth another try given what appears to be a ‘better’ signal.

Garmin Training Status? Like HRV I simply ignore it.

HR after 20-30 minutes of warmup? Discussed with my coach and going to ignore it as it often settles down later in the workout, and doesn’t seem to impact harder intervals (normal HR:power on these).

What has worked for me - being honest with myself and keeping a diary about how I feel after a workout and the next morning. That has served me far far better than ‘technology’ (Firstbeat Performance Condition/TrainingStatus, HRV or HR spot check after warmup).

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Do you ever ride the LSCT Warmup before a hard TR session? I have found (being ‘old’ at 52) this provides a better w/u than most TR workouts. Maybe it works because it just extends my warm-up time; maybe it works because it gets me to sub-threshold in a civilized way; maybe it works because I’m just used to it.

It does not exactly follow the Lambert Submaximal Test protocol, but it’s close enough for my purposes. I’ve always wondered why @chad put this in the catalog (it isn’t discussed anywhere really), but in my individual case, it works well.

It’s worth noting that many of the Garmin stats are collected at the end of your workout ie. BEFORE your body has had the chance to recover and make adaptations to the training stress you have applied.

So to that extent, if you responded to those stats, you would be chasing your tail.

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No but I seem to recall hearing Coach Chad talking about it on a (probably old) podcast. I’m pretty happy with my current warmup, usually 5 minutes 50% FTP and about 3 minutes into it the road narrows and a small burst of power to speed up and take the lane. Then ~12 minutes of easy zone2 ending with a big overcrossing and ~15 second hard anaerobic push. So about 17 minutes total to leave the city, warmup done and I’m on an old crappy road for a mile getting shaken like its a cobbled sector in France :joy: Legs are primed and ready for anything at that point.

Only if you are trying to stay at the same ‘training status’ all year long.

Re: Train the same way all year… I do not think this is true at all, that assumes you are trying to keep the Anaerobic, High Aerobic and Low Aerobic in the same part of the ‘pill’ target range and the training load the same week after week, see 7 day average load.

IMO it is not asking you to do that, well it is and it isn’t (it does assume you want to be productive as a default.)
Ignore the default ‘productive’ for a second, for example you want to peak for an event, drop the overall load and keep the most of the Anaerobic work, do this and it will report training status ‘Peaking.’ Drop the anaerobic load, increase the low aerobic load and and your status will move to ‘recovering’

The model doesn’t know the training status you are trying to achieve i.e building ‘Productive’, Maintaining, Detraining (mid season or end of season break), Peaking, recovery etc., that is a decision for you or your coach. You change the blend of stress and load to achieve the result.

I thought it was all a bit random until I had recorded every single session, cycling, running, walking for 3 months+ I then realised what it was telling me. It works for me, although I rarely use it to make a decision (although it has made me decide to do the odd V02max session).

I ignore the suggested training sessions as it doesn’t know what I am targeting. I think that more applies to people using it for general fitness not performance / peak performance

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My FTP tends to stay in a much narrower range than yours, hasn’t been outside of 320-350W in the 3 years that I’ve been using a power meter with my Garmin devices (before that I had a smart trainer but no outdoor PM, and I never bothered pairing the Garmin with the trainer), so <10% variation. I think the “noise” from other stuff that impacts the power to HR relationship including temperature, time of day, caffeine, freshness, etc drowns out the actual VO2 changes. E.g. My HR at any given power level is lower in cooler temperatures, as a result Garmin tends to give me higher VO2 estimates during winter than it does in summer, even though my fitness is nearly always the other way around. I guess with FTP changes >20% like you’re seeing then this might show up better in the numbers.

Maybe I’d get better results if I used the Garmin to record indoor workouts in parallel to using the TR software (since as pointed out above it only estimates VO2 for workouts actually recorded on a Garmin device which in my case is only about half my rides), but really can’t be bothered messing around with more devices, more charging, more chance of interference, deleting duplicate workouts, etc.

My guess is that you need to record all rides (inside/outside) with Garmin, otherwise the metrics have incomplete data. With only half the data I would think you have a fundamental problem with not feeding the model.

And FWIW, for at least 3 months my FTP has been in a narrow 245-265W (estimated) range. I’ve been recording all rides on Garmin since buying the 530 over 18 months ago (dual recording with TR at times).

Interesting thread. I just dropped to low volume plan and every day my garmin states I’m doing to much and I am hurting my recovery. I walk 5 days a week for around 24 km or 15 miles. 1000,s of vertical steps carrying around 30 lbs. I’m a mailman. One day I’m going to go to the boss and tell her I can’t go out that day. WHY? Because my garmin says I’m not up to it.

Most of the ‘interesting’ are powered by FirstBeat and require the ride be recorded on the device.

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