Polarized Training Discussion (Fast Talk podcast & Flo Cycling podcast)

2 hour race pace is < threshold. they do their intensity at race pace. Never > race pace (maybe a few seconds/km over current race pace, but still very little.)

what’s funny is I haven’t seen anyone post up Mikael’s interview with the current Norwegian XC skiing coach. They’re doing more of this style (just below threshold) of interval than Seiler’s zone 3. He had an example of an intervals session. 6x10 min finishing feeling like you could have done 8.

Seiler himself admits he’s a bit contradictory, but the main gist of all the interviews I’ve heard from his is there is not strict dogma like many people here seem to believe.

Just KISS, lots of low intensity volume, spice it up with intensity, and keep the intensity of that intensity regulated. Stay out of Zone 5 HR, but let the interval sessions be dictated by your target event. He’s openly admitted that the longer event athletes don’t train as much in his zone 3 and are more pyramidal, but are still using those simple rules to govern their training.

I realize this is an old post… but sometimes just hard to avoid.

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I suspect he picked up on some backlash, and over time he softened his position. At least thats what I heard.

Not surprised. I’ve always found Seiler high on theory and low on practicality and the needs of amateur age group athletes that have many competing priorities.

My $0.02

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I have listened to a lot of his interviews and he’s never used language that suggests strict dogma. From what I gather, it’s more of the fast talk and flo cycling guys who were promoting more of a must/never/don’t ever kind of situation with regards to middle intensity. Seiler’s hierarchy of endurance training follows much more closely to all of his interviews I’ve heard.

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That’s possible although I’ve heard ScientificTriathlon episode with the three coaches that discussed why mid intensity had a time and place (in spite of what they heard from Seiler).

What I absolutely agree with is a large volume of low aerobic / basic aerobic. It’s the “check your Strava ego at the door” slow ride that so many avoid, and instead chase an average speed.

The mid intensity (Coggan tempo up to 90%) is what I like to think of as advanced aerobic. I’ve seen benefits working in this area, as have coaches.

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My N=1

I’ve read and listened to all the Seiler stuff. It is clearly at odds with much of the TR philosophy. Regardless of how you define zones or name them, TR’s approach is to go hard at least 3 days a week, up to 6 days a week, while polarized is max out hard days at 2 (maybe 3 for the very short-term) then focus on low intensity riding for the remainder.

A key point that I haven’t seen mentioned above is study structure and the perils of extrapolating results, which Seiler mentions in some podcasts. TR bases much of it’s approach on studies performed over a few weeks (or even a few months), and for these time periods, Sweet Spot is extremely effective. I truly believe that if you become a good Ramp Tester, some of the high volume plans can teach you to suffer like no other plan I’ve ever seen. With this ability to suffer, plus the physiologic gains over a 3-6 month cycle (like a Base/Build/Specialty plan), a rider can blow personal-bests out of the water.

The problem develops when you start trying to string these together over a span of years, which I know has been discussed above. The vast majority of studies (maybe all exercise physiology studies?) in amateurs are done over a relatively short period of time. When these plans are stretched out longer, there are major hormonal shifts occurring that cannot be captured in 3-6 month observational windows. Pushing your body into the red 4-6 times per week for much longer than a year or so can lead to some bad outcomes. I started using Whoop recovery monitoring this year, and it has shed some light on these periods of intensity. I’ll tell you it isn’t pretty.

I will be doing polarized training for the foreseeable future because, for my N=1 (and I know I’m not unique in this respect), it just isn’t kind to your body or your stress hormone systems to push yourself that many times per week for years on end, and I am including anything >65% Ramp Test FTP as “pushing yourself” with full recognition that Sweet Spot can make many people faster cyclists. I’d like to be cycling for the next few decades though, and I feel that more than 2x/week intensity at 10-20 hours of structure per week will inevitably lead to destruction.

To switch gears a bit, I have trouble understanding the dogmatic clinging to sweet spot. TrainerRoad is perfect for a polarized training model because of the profound level of control one can over time in zones, total time per week, intensity control down to the single % level, and the diversity of the interval structures to keep it fun. The workouts are already there, so why is TR loathe to embrace a polarized set of plans? I doubt I would be alone in my appreciation for Chad, Nate, Jonathan, and everyone at TR applying their expertise, incredible user-friendliness, and scientific acumen to a new set of polarized plans to exist right alongside the masterfully formulated current plans.

I’ll be a life-long TR user regardless :slight_smile:

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TR is a company with a integrity and brand idea, not universal coaching platform. It is probably the main reason behind that. They adapted chosen coaching philosophy and stick with that. The only solution to this would be allowing users to setup they own plans (and I mean whole plans that can be shared between users) but then they will be coaching platform like TrainingPeaks and the brand vision will start to be more fuzzy. I think this is the main reason behind that.

I am not saying it is good or bad thing - but to mantain coherent vision they cannot introduce more brand philosophies, at least if they do not shift whole brand strategy at some point.

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Interesting point. Obviously I don’t sit in their strategic planning sessions, but the stated vision is to Make Everyone Faster, not Make Everyone Faster With Sweet Spot.

Again, it’s a wish, not some sort of demand, and I do not claim to know what is best for their business. Without too much trouble, I have been able to put together a basic polarized training plan from existing workouts and Chad McNeese’s suggestions. But the workout progressions aren’t ideal like they are in the formal Plans, and I’m sure my build to races could use some optimization.

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Yes I fully agree to that but now they would have to say: no sweet spot we have pushed for years is not getting you any faster than polarized, that makes you equaly fast. And then why not threshold training? Threshold training made me and other people a lot faster etc…

That is why the biggest change would be improved workout creator. You are going with fully customised plan that easily be done at the same level like the plan from TR. Their plans do not have anything “unique” that cannot be reconstructed by any user. It is simple TSS progression and adding stimulus by intensity or length. The workout progressions in plans are not so ideal because after some time you have to customize the plans according to your personal needs and strengths (or weaknesses) so build in plans are excellent if you start but after some time naturally you move to more customization because you know better your personal needs. But maybe this is only my personal experience as I love tinkering with the plans and like the “openness” TR gives you.

Agree. After doing ~14 months of hammerfest training, including 6+ months of TR (mostly HV), I started tracking my HRV. Yikes. I was basically lying face down in a ditch. Over the course of many months of doing only low-HR rides, which do not cause hormonal et al distress, my HRV readings had increased dramatically across the board.

“Polarized” training has been working very well for me. That said, there’s definitely a time & place for sweet spot and threshold training.

It’s amazing what kind of punishment the body can absorb and keep functioning, but also how well it performs in response to “healthy” activity.

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I’ve wondered if this is something that’s worth the investment. How are you tracking it?

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The easiest way to get started with HRV is to get an app for your mobile. It will use the camera and your fingertip to do HRV measurements in the morning.

I did try that for a while, but I found it quite annoying to do every morning and I soon just gave up.

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HR strap and Elite HRV app.

If you want to really geek out, you can download an HRV data desktop program used by healthcare (Kubios). Import app readings/files to the program and you can get some interesting stuff which apps don’t provide.

That said, I think HRV might only be useful to track your normal overall health trend, not sure it can or should dictate your training.

*both app and program are free.

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HRV is also on my Apple Watch, and other wearables.

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I had been using HRV4training, but I was too lazy to do it everyday. Just seemed like an extra thing on top of a very busy schedule. Maybe I’m just falling for all the Whoop marketing that seems to follow me around at the moment.

Like the Captain, I’ve also used HRV app and Garmin strap. No matter Apple Watch or Garmin chest strap, my HRV is in a fairly narrow range and not of much use to influence training.

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Yes it is a bit of a pain to take morning readings, especially if you want good data — 5min readings.

Forgot to mention one thing HRV might be able to reveal is your VT1. Using the desktop program, it’s quite eye-opening to see a graphical representation of when your para/symp nervous systems become dominant.

:clap: it makes me happy to read this, as some of us were telling you to stop going overboard on training.

This is a decent thread on all things HRV:

The HRV4Training dev recommends the Oura ring if you’re looking for a wearable. They integrate with it now:
https://www.hrv4training.com/blog/oura-ring-integration-read-sleep-data-whole-night-heart-rate-and-hrv-in-hrv4training

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