you know what they say about us engineers? We learn more and more, about less and less, until we know practically everything about nothing 
I moved into management years ago. Which means I no longer have useful knowledge but also prevent those who do from using it effectively to solve problems. Making new therapeutics and helping patients is fun but I really want to find the solution to go from 4w/kg to 5 w/kg
Type 1 is important and tractable. Keep on working there and I bet it breaks open in the not distant future.
-Mark
Iāve read a couple of Dr. Seilerās papers available on Google Scholar. In the first Velo News podcast it is mentioned that you can read his works and comment on Researchgate. It appears that you have to be a researcher in some capacity to sign on to Researchgate.
Also reading through the threads on Polarized training, comments go back and forth with people gaining from this type of training, and others that benefit from Sweet spot intervals and the workouts in TR SSB 1, and 2. I am coming to the conclusion that to benefit from the SSB plans in Trainer Road, you have to have some miles in your legs over a couple of years. Nate describes going from 270 something to 340 something FTP on the trainer road plans.
Personally, I made the most gains in Traditional Base 1 and 2 and No gains in SSB1 or SSB2, with difficulty completing the workouts over FTP.
Given that I see significant divergence between Power and Heartrate for endurance level workouts like Baxter, I am concluding that I am aerobically unfit, in spite of completing Traditional Base 1 an 2 and SSB 1 and 2.
Going forward Iām planning 3 months of Polarized training with one VO2 max workout/week and one group ride, Adding 3 Zone 1 2 hr rides. Weāll see how it goes.
If your group rides are like most group rides, you might be getting more than enough VO2max work on that day. If that is the case you might consider substituting a SS WO for your VO2max WO so that you donāt overdo the VO2max work.
There are two physiological markers that TR currently does not spend much time discussing, or factoring into their plans/athlete profiles (at least not explicitly):
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LT1 - the first lactate turnpoint which is an indication of aerobic fitness/how much your body can rely on fat for fuel.
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VLaMax - the max rate at which you can generate lactate - which informs how well you can do in anaerobic sprint efforts, and also informs (along with VO2max) FTP.
Similar to you, I show cardiac drift on endurance workouts, and i think itās because my LT1 is low. Polarized training / endurance training can help with this.
I think SS is also necessary however if you are trying to reduce VLaMax. So a pyramidal model may be more appropriate - depending on athlete profile and goals.
TThe Steve Neal podcast was a good one. Also listen to Mikael Erikssonās podcast with Sebastian Weber.
Good point, Since this is a work in progress, Iāll see what the distribution is after the first couple of weeks. Iām using the VO2 progression that was put forth by Coach Chad, so at first the workouts have very short intervals above FTP
I donāt intend to move into any sweetspot work until the cardiac drift, which Iām using as a sign of lack of pure aerobic fitness is much better. If things work out, after 3 months of this, I should be able to transition to a modified SSB plan keeping some longer pure aerobic sessions.
Friends, I have enjoyed all of the aforementioned podcast and information in this thread although I wanted to get some clarification.
I have a anaerobic engine that has given me some success although as Iām catting up and racing with faster individuals, Its becoming obvious that I need to be more well rounded and I want to build a Diesel engine for those breakaways and TTās. I have never trained aerobically.
If my max HR is 200, it appears my aerobic HR is around 130-140? So I will focus on an 8 week block of (3) 90 min + aerobic rides @ about 140 BPM, Two days of sustained sweet spot intervals, and one day of a 3-4 hour group ride.
I completed one of my first endurance style rides of 120 minutes yesterday. At 140BPM, I was at 200watts. I assume this is my benchmark.
If I continue this plan, should I expect my aerobic watts to rise? If so, what is a realistic rise for someone like myself that normally only rides anaerobically.
Please help me build a Diesel engine! Any advice or input is greatly appreciated.
My stats:
37 years old
160lbs
Ex-BMX background
300 FTP
1300ish max effort
600w 1 min max
If you continue to do the group rides instead of longer sustained aerobic rides, no, you shouldnāt expect it to rise. The group rides will likely neutralize or override the effect of those 90 minute rides.
I have a somewhat similar profile right now to you, except tilted even a bit more anaerobically (my one minute power is about 240% of my FTP) and the thing that gave me the most benefit in the past for aerobic power was to do long 4-6 hour steady paced aerobic rides.
I appreciate the response and Iām surprised one group ride a week will neutralize the aerobic results.
Overall, did you have any aerobic power improvements?
Cheers
(Disclaimer that this is more for fast responders to anaerobic work)
Itās more the duration of the group ride compared to aerobic stimulus you are trying to get. Group rides tend to be best at building anaerobic repeatability but the benefits of that taper off pretty quickly especially if you are a more anaerobic athlete to begin with. You end up in a scenario where your glycogen battery can cover most of the needs and you donāt end up getting a lot of physiological stimulus.
Group rides are still good for many things, including fun, tactics, ride skills, race craft, etc. so I wouldnāt drop them completely.
IMO, one short group ride during the week and a long steady ride on the weekend would be a better option for you, along with the two sweetspot workouts.
As a reference, I have roughly the same FTP, but nowhere near the AC and my aerobic rides are in the 200-215 range when trying to keep under 130 bpm (usually averages 115-120, my max is 180). Iām finding with outdoor rides, it really depends on the terrain how well my HR matches up with my power avg. If I need to coast much at all Iāll have a higher avg HR to power than a flatter ride.
Thanks for the informationā¦ pardon the ignorance, āACā?
Anaerobic Capacity.
I find outside riding has so many variables (weather, terrain, stopping, etc) that itās hard to really hard to make comparisons or verify improvements. I made the below ride that I will incorporate 3 times a week to determine if Iām going in the right direction. I assume I will raise or lower while riding to stay at 140bpm.
Iām time, would it be realistic to think I could see a 10% or higher improvement?
Really hard to say as far as I know. Iāve seen some aerobic improvements of what power I can do at some specific HR, but they were also tied to improvements in my max capability. Tracking what percent of your VO2 max is your LT1 would be easier with regular lactate testing, but just using HR and power might not be telling the whole story. Predicting a quantifiable and individual response is quite hard.
Iāve seen my power at LT1 improve by almost 20% since moving to a more polarised approach.
FTP also bumped by about 8% after stagnation for a couple of years.
Only advice Iād offer is when doing easy rides outdoors is look for as flat a route as you can, with as few junctions as possible. Then you can keep the steady effort sustained for as long as possible over you ride time.
Excellent! How long have you been following the polarized model?
I changed to a more polarised approach at the end of Oct last year. Def not 80:20 but I no longer try to go āhardā every ride.
Now I do easy spins below LT1 and 2 hard short sessions every week, usually 3x 6 mins as my usual commute lends itself to that length of interval. I go by RPE for these.
Also do a group ride most weeks, probably would be better going out on my own for ablong easy spin but enjoy it too much.
Any race will replace a hard session that week.
How do you know this? What I mean is how are you determining LT1? 