S1E13: Polarized Training - A Detailed Look, is the one you want.
They specifically address this in the podcast. They say they have done studies with non elite athletes doing as little as 4 hours a week and it still holds true.
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Might require a new topic, but anyone suggest a good effective (cheap) Lactate Monitor?
$300 - ouch!
$280 - ouch!
Iâm listening to the Flo podcast right now (well I was listening on my drive this morning, and Iâll pick it back up this evening), I still have a ways to go in it. But here are some of my thoughts:
When you listen to the Fast Talk episodes on polarized training, Trevor Connor is pretty adamant about needing a 2+ hour ride every week⌠but Seiler remarks that cycling is the only sport that seems to eschew two-a-day workouts in order to get more volume in. I donât recall any clear reason for this distinction, except that many bike races trend longer - elite marathon times are under 3 hours, elite cross country skiing times are under 3 hours, elite marathon swims are under 2 hours, etc.
Looking at Chrisâs lactate results, his LT1 is 190W / 130bpm, and his LT2 is 220W / 145bpm. So in polarized training, the range of power he should be avoiding for intervals or long rides is only 30W, and it sounded like Chris otherwise estimated his FTP (i.e., in a 5-zone model that ignores LT1 and LT2) at more like 260. It definitely sounded like he was not, prior to the podcast, using 220W as a measurement for anything he did.
Anyway, Iâm going to try to go back and verify that, but hereâs something interesting: if the number he uses for setting training zones is 260W, and his measured LT2 power is 220W⌠then sweet spot work in the 85-95% of FTP is all in Seilerâs zone 3, and not falling into the black hole of zone 2.
I am left wondering if the real âconflictâ between Cogganâs 5-zone model and Seilerâs 3-zone model is that they rely on different metrics (blood lactate testing, vs. timed power tests), and while the zones are quite different, the sort of training they direct you to do is not that different.
Polarized training does a lot less intensity in zone 3, but on the other hand, sweet spot training zeroes in on a particular space within that zone (basically the very bottom of the polarized zone 3) where the stress and fatigue is more manageable. You do more of it in sweet spot training because you arenât lumping the challenging-but-doable bottom of that zone in with the very taxing and selectively included VO2max efforts at the top of that zone.
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Dr. Seiler says the same about needing a 2-2.5 hour ride every week. That long-steady-slow ride is one of the keys to the whole program. 2 1-hour rides will not have the same effect on the body as one long 2-hour ride. And in reality, the longer you can make that âlongâ ride, the better response you will get.
I am toying with 80/20 right now. I did a 4 hour trainer ride last Saturday, with nearly no coasting (a couple of accidental switches out of ERG via typing⌠doh), and my legs were toast. That is all just time with a very low power (70% of FTP max) and an average closer to 65%. Super easy, but super long, especially for being on a trainer. This felt more like a 5 hour ride if I had done it outside. Itâs one reason I like suffering through these inside to maximize efficiency of my time.
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/chader09/rides/41013270-vogelsang
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Most people will benefit from extending their endurance rides out an extra 30, 60, 90 minutes, especially if they ride longer durations for races. I donât think thatâs very controversial.
I frankly just have a hard time with some of the reference numbers, specifically when looking at the training plan structure for the soccer player turned cyclist in this study: Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance: the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training
If I run these numbers for myself, it ends up being a reduction in anaerobic capacity and tempo in favor of sweetspot, threshold and VO2max! This isnât polarized for me, its a TrainerRoad plan!
(For reference, my HR max is 200 and my LTHR: 182 and I regularly sit between 170 and 180 for sweetspot work and around 185-190 ish for VO2 max)
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Through a quick reference from Trevor, I rediscovered some early podcasts that mesh well with this discussion. Surprisingly, I find these more straight forward with Trevor having a more positive overall outlook on the shorter time scale discussion. Worth a listen.
I added these into my reference âPower Zones 2.0â sheet for future reference.
Fully agree. When Paris-Roubaix comes up Iâm doing a six hour one while watching the whole race. Itâs so low in power. But my weekend is over by leaving the bike. No other workout is so hard.
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Im really interested in the polarised approach but beside many other questions:
How do you deal with muscle endurance at higher power? If itâs raceday and youâre riding a long time near FTP I wonder if would have enough muscle strength to hold the power when in training just very low outputs are done for a longer time.
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First, donât forget the 20% spent in VO2 Max. The range of intervals (2, 4, 8, 16 mins) can lead to the strength you mention.
But to the best of my understanding, the other adaptation comes via the extra stress added from the one big long ride. The stress on the muscles and fibers comes via long and steady work, that has gains well beyond that low intensity level.
(I am sure I probably butchered this comment and welcome a better explanation from others).
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I think you got it correctly. My understanding is the long rides fatigue the slow twitch muscle fibers which then forces your body to use the fast twitch muscle fibers towards the end of those long rides (which is why you canât shortcut the process for those).
@Turtle_Express here is an anecdotal account (N=1) related to your above concerns: https://philwilks.com/polarized-training-and-my-experience-1-year-on-b334eb99e440
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Yeah, thatâs what I was getting at. The zones are based on such different things that the rough correlations (like LT2 is âroughlyâ FTP, and the Seilerâs zone 2 âroughlyâ corresponds to Cogganâs zone 3, and sweet spot is âroughlyâ at the top end of zone 3âŚ) paint a picture of conflict and disagreement. When you start nailing down exactly what is prescribed each way, for a given person with an established FTP, LT1, and LT2, there are still differences, but they arenât so conflicting that it seems like only one or the other could be right.
Then you go back and look at Frank Overton, who was deeply embedded in sweet spot coaching theory, has to say, and itâs even less conflicting: âSweet spot versus zone 2 is not Mac versus PC or Chevy versus Ford. A well designed training plan like the one below incorporates both! When athletes have generated substantial fatigue in their legs from sweet spot training then an easier workout (requiring less power) is an appropriate workout prescription.â (Sweet Spot versus Zone 2 Training Plan Design â FasCat Coaching)
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I wanted to also add given my prior comments, that I think there are truly salient aspects of the polarized model research, but I think they have to be applied with a scalpel rather than a sledge hammer.
Good:
- Extending out endurance rides to stress all the fiber types and get aerobic adaptation
- Managing intensity so you can perform well during high quality intensity work that causes true adaptation
- Adding appropriate levels of volume while managing load
Bad:
- Neglecting energy systems that are commonly used during races (Sweetspot and Threshold)
- Overdosing on high intensity work (which can cause burnout and also the gains tend to stop after 8 weeks or so)
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Awesome post, Steve!
This is the part I have a problem with. I did a deeper dive into the peer reviewed literature on the polarized approach prompted by some of what was alluded to on TR and other threads on the subject.
My interpretation (so YMMV) the strongest data supporting polarized being as good as or better than training near FTP had nearly equivalent TSS between the two groups. That doesnât sound like a big deal until you calculate how much volume you need in Z1/2 if you only do 1 or 2 hard (VO2, anaerobic) sessions a week to get, letâs say, 600 TSS. Hint: itâs a lot. Thatâs not to say doing 6h/week polarized is useless, but the data isnât very air-tight.
Iâd LOVE to be able to do 3 or more 6 hour rides per week outdoors. But, Iâd need to clone myself to pull that off.
Maybe polarized just brings us back full circle to Merckxâs âride lotsâ quote.
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Another benefit from the polarized approach, and the 80% of the time spent in Seiler zone 1, is that towards the top of this zone is where fat oxidation is at its maximum:
From the link Steve shared: âWe conclude that a large fraction of the training within this zone is being performed at ~60-65 %VO2max, We note that this intensity is about the intensity associated with maximal fat utilization in trained subjectsâ.
So by training in this zone, youâre training your body to utilize fat as fuel ⌠and not coincidentally, 60-65% of VO2 max corresponds to ~72-78% of FTP - which is in the range of IF for longer endurance events.
When I look at reasons I havenât done as well as I thought I might in endurance events its been because of a combination of 1. muscle fatigue, and 2. my nutrition fails me - meaning I canât eat enough carbs to continue fueling the machine (and I think the latter for me has been the bigger issue).
If the polarized approach can help build slow twitch (and fast twitch type IIA) muscle endurance, and in particular, better train my body to utilize fat as fuel, then it seems like a worthwhile approach to try.
One of my challenges, however, will be keeping 80% of time in zone 1, as I live in a mountainous area, and when MTB and road rides start going uphill, thereâs no way to stay in zone 1⌠and Iâm not sure I can ride Baxter for 6-8 hours a week on the trainer 
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If you use Chadâs spreadsheet to find Lactate thresholds 1 and 2 (based on either HR or power), you can probably get close enough and not need a lactate monitor to establish your three Seiler zones.
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Fair enough, now to find workouts that better match this system!
I was just wondering which workouts on TR match the L3 workouts needed.
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I search the Workouts by checking the following filters:
- VO2 Max (Zone)
- 60-90 min (Duration)
- Medium (Intervals)
And I pick the ones that are set blocks (not the short on/off ones).
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