I’ve been using TR for a few years now, usually during the Winter seasons. I’m just starting to build out my plan for this Fall/Winter, and it feels like TR has removed Traditional Base or any Base plan… There’s no question about experience or fitness level either…
I’m really frustrated that now TR is just suggesting SS and Threshold training, when I really just want mostly endurance training (I’m largely Type 2 muscles, and really need good base training).
Am I missing something here? Any help or feedback is appreciated.
Wow, that wasn’t clear on the website. I thought it was just for information… I didn’t realize you could schedule them. They really funnel you into choosing the Custom Plan Builder. Thanks!!
However, the General Base and Traditional Base still push me to do SS and Threshold training. What if I just want to put in 1 - 2 hour Z2 rides? I thought Base training was to focus on Z2?
How many hours a week are you planning on training? 1-2h z2 rides are only going to give you 5-10h a week. This is where you need some intensity to make up for the lack of volume.
I’m not at my computer however I remember setting up my last plan, there was options to remove / add workout types. It allowed them to repeat or be removed each week for the entire duration of the plan, without me having to manually do it.
I’m doing way under 10 hrs/week, I’m going to try to do 3 months of TR and see how it goes. I really think I’m not doing enough to justify a bunch of Z2
Just make sure you listen to your body and don’t overcook yourself. Intensity is a great tool when you’re not doing many hours, but it’s also easy to go too hard trying to make up for lost time, especially as you age. Better to take an easy day when needed than to end up having to take extended time away from the bike because you’re fried. Short term gains are exciting, but when it comes to endurance sports, consistency is king in the long run. Most of us have learned this lesson the hard way!
Traditional Base 1 (MV & HV) is the only phase that’s endurance-only. Then (for MV) in TB2 you start to see tempo & in TB3 threshold & sweetspot.
Also, you can repeat plan phases. I did TB1 MV three times at the start of this year, meaning no intervals for about 12 weeks. I’ve done other plans in the meantime & back to doing TB1 HV right now, for different reasons than yours. It’s still only 10h per week over four workouts, so I’m pushing up the durations of some workouts & adding one ~1h sweetspot workout per week (via Train Now) plus strength training to keep touching up the type-two fibres.
I remember from a podcast years ago, Jonathan was saying something along the lines of traditional base low volume plans being beneficial only for those recovering from injury etc., because it takes a lot more volume on those plans than on the other plans for athletes to get faster.
Otherwise if you have some history on strava &/or garmin, you can sync those to TR & it’ll have some data to analyse before building a plan for you. In terms of what’s possible with the new plan builder vs what you’re asking for, you can tell it to give you only two interval workouts per week & you can shorten them right down, then extend the endurance rides to approach what you want.
Traditional Base plans are good for those on either end of the bell curve. Either you’re riding a ton and can get a good stimulus from really long Z2 rides (those aren’t easy), or you aren’t looking for training stimulus and are coming back from injury or have some other sort of special need.
We believe that all other athletes will highly benefit from some intensity, even during Base training. Most of us carry solid bases around throughout the year, so spending a bunch of time at or below Z2 will likely leave some gains on the table.
@ncsteinb, if you have any questions about things moving forward, just let me know! I’d be happy to help out. We’re always working on things behind the scenes over here.
@eddie Thanks for the input. For long (for me) road or gravel rides at 3+ hours, even at Z2/Z3, I’m absolutely shattered at the end. However, during mountain bike rides at the same duration, I tear the legs off my fellow roadies. They joke that my legs are PURE type 2… They tell me that I need to focus on Z2 riding.
Is that correct? Do you have any insight as to how I can build up a solid base so that I don’t get dropped on Z2/Z3 long rides? Thanks.
For long (for me) road or gravel rides at 3+ hours, even at Z2/Z3, I’m absolutely shattered at the end. However, during mountain bike rides at the same duration, I tear the legs off my fellow roadies. They joke that my legs are PURE type 2… They tell me that I need to focus on Z2 riding.
Is that correct?
I’d say that’s hard to answer without knowing more specifics.
It’s possible that you have a higher anaerobic capacity so that you can punch over threshold more. But it’s also possible that it’s a skills issue/difference and the ‘roadies’ just aren’t as efficient on the mountain bike so you use relatively less energy where they are better at pack dynamics and drafting on the road so they use less there.
Do you have any insight as to how I can build up a solid base so that I don’t get dropped on Z2/Z3 long rides?
In this case I wouldn’t be worried about having SS or Threshold workouts during base. Anything threshold and under is all “aerobic”. As other’s have pointed out, if you’re doing less than like 15 hours a week (up to like 25 if you’re super fit) then you’ll quickly max out on a Z2 only diet and you’ll have to add some intensity to get the required stimulus for your aerobic capacity to keep improving.
For myself, I basically do a 1-3 weeks of Z2/3 at the beginning just to get back in the swing of things after an off season break. Then I do a SS block and then into Threshold. But if you’re time limited then you’ll quickly realize that your workouts aren’t long enough to fit enough tempo or SS to get in a good enough workout so you’ll likely need more threshold earlier.
Also, don’t overlook your nutrition as well. MTB typically has a bit spikier of an effort leading to a much lower average power leading to lower overall calorie burn. You could potentially burn like 50% more calories in a 3 hour road ride than a 3 hour MTB ride. So you might find that you need to eat more
There is a lot of information around at the moment that most people are doing their easy riding (Z2 for want of a better description) too hard. I’m more of a Type 2 type and find that riding any volume at the higher end of Cogan Z2 just knackers me. I’ve recently started backing of a lot so as not to be too tired all the time. Fast twitchers start using a lot more carbs at low intensities than do slow twitchers as their first threshold tends to be a lot lower. The stimulus appears to come from the duration and the number of muscle contractions not the intensity.
How are you fueling your Z2 rides? When riding near LT1, you need to fuel with carbs!
@carytb LT1 is sort of the “top end” of “easy” riding, and if you’re getting wiped out by those, you might need to fuel more. So many athletes still think that because you’re burning fat in Z2, carbs are less important. All you hear from pro cyclists/runners nowadays is how they’ve revolutionized their training by fueling easy riding when they used to try to optimize fat oxidation.
@ncsteinb, this could apply to you as well. @mwglow15 has the right idea about modern base training. You’ll be better off building a base with bigger chunks of stimulus if you’re not riding enough to get the same amount of stimulus with smaller chunks (easy riding).
3-hour-long Z2/Z3 rides shouldn’t be too taxing if you’re fueling well and actually riding in Z2/Z3. If you feel absolutely exhausted, then it’s likely a fueling issue you’re experiencing, but if your legs are sore by the end, then it could be a muscular fatigue issue. In that case, I’d still recommend doing some General Base training with Z2, Z3, and Z4 efforts!
This thread couldn’t have come at a better time. I’ve followed Trainerroad’s custom plan with lots of Sweet Spot in base season last year and have seen good gains. However, I’ve been curious about traditional base for a while, and I’m thinking about trying it this season. I’ve been able to carve out 10 to 12 hours a week for riding, but I’m unsure about how to structure it. I’ll likely be riding 5 times a week, with 3 week day rides ranging from 1.5 to 2.5h, Saturday club ride 3.5 to 4h and Sunday 1 to 2h. If I subscribe to Traditional Base High Volume plan, is adaptive training plan still a thing? For example, if I need some days in the week to be a 1.5 hour sessions out instead of 2.5 hours, but I can add an extra day else where in the week (consistantly throughout the base phase), will the plan know what to do and still give me the apropriate workouts ?
Hi @Bruce.C. Adaptive Training still works & will vary the difficulty of workouts depending upon your performance etc., but it will keep to the time allotted by the plan design, 2h15-2½h nominally (except for shortening in the case of fatigue), but if you routinely want workouts of a different duration you’ll have to use alternates to do this manually. Unlike the custom tailored plan, the manually selected plans don’t have the facility to set durations.
@roleypup is right in that stand-alone training phases aren’t quite as customizable or flexible as a custom training plan.
In my opinion, you’re probably better off using Plan Builder. You can’t quite get a Traditional Base plan that way, but, honestly, I still think you’d be better off with at least two harder workouts each week..
