New to TR - volume/intensity worries, not enough?

[jreinfeld]

I’m also interested in how you structure your recovery weeks or recovery weeks for your clients.

More days off? Less volume? I’ve read 50% of normal volume - but I usually end up just taking off more days in that week and riding the weekend for fun before getting back to structure that following week.

[AussieRider]

@OreoCookie

Before I got into training, my idea of the best way of getting faster was to ride as fast as I could every time.

I’ve always ridden with intention. Just not, I must do x on said day. So if I was feeling flat I’d do an easy ride in the mountains. And if I was feeling strong I might do a threshold effort on a 30-45 min climb or a Vo2 effort on a 13 min climb. I do feel more tired this way but I also feel like I’m riding with purpose and a plan and that feels reassuring. And while the mental fatigue is definitely higher I feel much fresher after a 60 min workout vs a 3 hr workout with a lot of junk miles mixed in.

[kurt.braeckel]

@OreoCookie

If I understand you correctly, you compute EF for a given fixed power, say, 230 W. On the one hand, I understand why then EF is lower. But on the other, this isn’t how I (or many others) train: I either train by power, which is relative to my FTP. Or I go by heart rate. In a sense, I keep either the IF fixed or the denominator fixed.

You don’t compute EF for a fixed power or a fixed HR. You can go ride by feel on a long, steady Z2 ride. EF is best on steady rides intended to be in a single power range with relatively low Variability Index (meaning not surging a lot). EF is NP/HR. So I go out for a steady 4hr ride last week, EF 1.16. I do the same ride this week, EF 1.20. I put out higher power at a lower HR, agnostic of target power or FTP.

Over the course of time, I watch EF trends for long, steady endurance rides. If EF is progressing and HR decoupling is low (say, less than 5% or at least declining from prior rides), I’ll extend the duration of the ride, or if the rider is maxed out at their achievable duration, start adding higher intensity sections.

I also watch EF trends on “test” rides depending on the duration of their events. So take a notional LT1 HR (for me about 141), warmup for 15 minute raising HR to between 139 and 143 and hold it there for 45 minutes, track power progression. Last week 170W, this week 180W. Progress. Base aerobic fitness is going up… keep doing what I’m doing… or look at other confounding factors like heat, stress, sleep, etc. That’s why subjective feedback is important. If most things are stable, then I know it’s working. If lots of confounding factors, that makes it harder.

@OreoCookie

But it seems like a metric that needs a lot of context in order to be properly understood. Not a criticism, just trying to understand here.

When you find a metric that doesn’t need a ton of context, let me know. Such a metric does not exist.

@OreoCookie

That hasn’t been my experience. I don’t want to introduce too much anecdata into the discussion, but e. g. at one of my all-time power PRs, I did 117 % FTP for 6:50 minutes at 159 bpm, and I had gas left into the tank (I went for a popular Strava segment during a ride, but had 50 km left to go home and didn’t want to destroy my legs). My average heart rate across that segment was lower than the 158–163 bpm I’d expect to see during a threshold effort.

At least for me heart rate at threshold and heart rate recovery have proven to be two important metrics to gauge my fitness.

Of course HR and HR recovery are important, but a 6:50 interval is not a good indicator of HR stability, and average HR for that short of an interval is basically meaningless, especially without context. As a general rule, HR goes out the window when riding above threshold as a useful in situ metric. When doing longer VO2max intervals (5-6 min or more), I want to see HR get above 90% of max quickly, and hopefully push up to maxHR… but trying to pace intervals with HR above threshold is a fool’s errand.

@jreinfeld

B. There is considerable lag for heart rate. You basically did a V02 effort (if your FTP was set correctly) but the average HR for that effort ended in your usual “threshold” zone for heart rate because of the lag that is inherent to heart rate.

Exactly. Avg HR for a 7min interval is virtually meaningless, especially if it’s coming off a long period of easy riding.

@mailman

I guess the biggest difference between TR and paying a coach is that a decent coach can read between the lines or watch metrics to gauge fatigue, whereas TR relies on honest self-reporting.

Good coaches rely on honest self-reporting too. Subjective feedback is important, but a good coach can often tell when there’s something else up. Getting the athlete to tell us what it is can be a challenge, and we can’t really do a good job without knowing those things. It’s why having a coach you trust is critical.

@mailman

talking with many athletes over the last two decades there’s a vast number of people who get little back from a coach. People are often inclined to do too much, TR just needs a way of better altering the plans to all the extra stuff people add in.

Sorry to hear that. Not all coaches are created equal, and there are a lot out there who think their job is just to draw up a plan and tell you to follow the plan, and if you don’t or can’t follow the plan that’s your own fault. There are lots of coaches out there who recognize that it’s our job to create plans the athlete can and wants to follow. That latter part is hard, and it’s a big reason why I put athlete education so high on my philosophical priority list. If you understand WHY you’re doing certain workouts at certain times, you’re more inclined to do them.

@AussieRider

And if I was feeling strong I might do a threshold effort on a 30-45 min climb or a Vo2 effort on a 13 min climb. I do feel more tired this way but I also feel like I’m riding with purpose and a plan and that feels reassuring.

That’s not really a plan. That’s riding to feel. You’re not purposefully working any energy system with any progression or intent. You’re just riding. That’s OK, plenty of people do it, but it’s not structured or purposeful, IME.

[kurt.braeckel]

@OreoCookie

What should recovery weeks look like in your mind?

@jreinfeld

I’m also interested in how you structure your recovery weeks or recovery weeks for your clients.

More days off? Less volume? I’ve read 50% of normal volume - but I usually end up just taking off more days in that week and riding the weekend for fun before getting back to structure that following week.

Sorry guys, but “it depends.”

Recovery from a 3-week VO2max block will likely be longer and have more full days off than recovery from a 5-week base endurance period. It also depends on the rider’s background, fitness, and how much different the load we’ve got him/her under is than the load they’ve been used to.

OK, that out of the way.

A typical recovery week has:

• More days off than their traditional week. (I ride six days a week. In a recovery week, I’ll ride no more than five, usually four, maybe less).
• At least one and often two rides of IF less than 0.5, and probably 45-90 min (90 min would be for very high volume riders).
• One or two sets of openers, usually just 30s efforts somewhat above threshold on lots of rest interspersed into mid-week rides following 4-5 days of no or zone 1 riding.
• Short/Medium duration PDC testing at the end of the week.
• A reduced volume endurance ride… or if the rider is someone who needs to hammer with a group periodically their favorite group ride on the weekend.

So, that would be typical… here’s what mine might look like coming off a base period, last ride on Saturday:

Sun - Off
Mon - 60min 0.45 IF or less, reduced intensity weight lifting session (only 1 this week, I usually do 2).
Tue - Off
Weds - (Optional) 60-90 min 0.45IF or less… 90 min only if I feel recovered, ride only if I feel like I want to.
Thurs - Openers: 60 min mostly 0.5-0.55IF, 5x30s at 120% or so at 120rpm+ on 5 min easy spinning between.
Fri - Openers again, maybe?: 90 min mostly 0.5-0.6IF, 5x30s at 120% at 120+ rpm on 3 min easy spinning.
Sat - 3hr endurance ride w/ sprint test and medium duration (usually 1-8 min) test in there.
Sun - Off

My normal week right now is 12hrs, long rides have been 4hrs in this block, generally 500-600TSS. This would amount to between 200-300 TSS.

But as mentioned, it really depends. Some riders might take three full days off in a row (or more!). But it’s a dramatic reduction in intensity and volume with a focus on sleep, nutrition and rest. It’s not just about de-loading, but de-loading enough and long enough that your body adapts to the training you did. Riding five days and six hours at 0.65IF on a TR mid volume plan isn’t doing that for you, IMO.

This weekend I have a 12+hr 200 mile ride scheduled. It’s the end of my 5 week base block, I’ll do 22 hours this week including two shorter threshold interval sessions. Odds are pretty good I’ll take 5 of the next 8 days completely off the bike after that.

So, it depends.

[AussieRider]

@kurt.braeckel

That’s not really a plan. That’s riding to feel. You’re not purposefully working any energy system with any progression or intent.

That’s exactly what I said. I was riding based on how I was feeling. The difference to Oreo was he was riding as fast as he could on every ride (paraphrasing) while I would hit different “systems” based on how I felt that day. Hence why I made the comparison to how I rode before versus riding with structure now.

[Pbase]

@kurt.braeckel

There are lots of coaches out there who recognize that it’s our job to create plans the athlete can and wants to follow. That latter part is hard, and it’s a big reason why I put athlete education so high on my philosophical priority list. If you understand WHY you’re doing certain workouts at certain times, you’re more inclined to do them.

Absolutely love this philosophy. Kudos to you. You sound like a great coach.

[kurt.braeckel]

Dunno about all that… some day. I have a lot yet to learn! But thank you!

[OreoCookie]

Overall, the biggest difference is going to be the structure with a purpose. Before getting started with TR, I’d look for workouts online and do some that struck my fancy. Did that make me faster? Sure. But you can imagine the selection: just hard hitting stuff for the most part, also because that was what was most convenient (I have a 5ish-minute climb nearby that I’d hit over and over again).

The structure with a purpose is what does the trick.

@AussieRider

I’ve always ridden with intention. Just not, I must do x on said day. So if I was feeling flat I’d do an easy ride in the mountains. And if I was feeling strong I might do a threshold effort on a 30-45 min climb or a Vo2 effort on a 13 min climb.

Unless the mountain or climb was very close, just getting there causes significant fatigue. My favorite local climb is 50–60 km away from where I live, so I can’t attack it full force. Ditto if you want to do other types of intervals outdoors: you have to do those on a suitable road/route.

That’s another advantage of indoor training: you can get started right away with no filler. Moreover, it is much more specific. If you have to ride to a location, you’ll spend significant amounts of time in zone 2 (endurance) and only then do you target the other zone (e. g. sweet spot, threshold or VO2max). On a trainer many workouts put you either in Z1 during rest and in the target zone.

@AussieRider

And while the mental fatigue is definitely higher I feel much fresher after a 60 min workout vs a 3 hr workout with a lot of junk miles mixed in.

This is yet another factor in favor of mixing in structured training, especially when you do quite a bit indoors: fatigue is likely going to be the limiting factor. Having lower fatigue at the same time-in-zone is an advantage.

Just to be clear, I’m not advocating that year-round you only sit on the trainer. In winter, depending on where you live, this might be necessary, but I regard my time on the training mostly addressing my fitness whereas for outdoor rides, I try to do things that are complementary.

[OreoCookie]

@kurt.braeckel

Of course HR and HR recovery are important, but a 6:50 interval is not a good indicator of HR stability, and average HR for that short of an interval is basically meaningless, especially without context.

@kurt.braeckel

Exactly. Avg HR for a 7min interval is virtually meaningless, especially if it’s coming off a long period of easy riding.

Just to add context: this was during a hard ride with a 15-minute climb over threshold just prior.

And I did not emphasize enough that for me the critical number is heart rate in the sweet spot/threshold regions: for the last intervals of workout that tends to lower across a season from 165 bpm to 158 bpm or so. I realize heart rate is not a good way to pace shorter efforts, I only use it to pace easy Z2 rides, but I use it as a secondary indicator for overall fitness and fatigue.

For shorter VO2max efforts outdoors my heart rate usually is in the same region as for threshold efforts on the trainer, hence, my example.

[kurt.braeckel]

@OreoCookie

For shorter VO2max efforts outdoors my heart rate usually is in the same region as for threshold efforts on the trainer, hence, my example.

I would suggest you’re not doing the VO2max work hard enough (or maybe not the right type of VO2max work).