What is the evidence that any of these “new” approaches are actually better?
Here you go, Rønnestad et al 2020
They are part of the polarized research tradition. Ronnestad et al 2013 began discussing 30/15 intervals. Seiler had mentioned this research before in previous podcasts and youtube videos.
The research is “new” in the sense that they’ve tested this in a lab. Many coaches and other athletes have been experimenting with the protocol. The labs are catching up as usual.
But the logic makes sense; hard days should be hard. The question that follows is, “what makes it hard”. Its just neat to see that the evidence is shaping up to be, “hard is spending time being at a hard level”. Science is so interesting.
I do not include the 30-45 second ramp up in the total interval duration. I make that a separate lap, and the real interval begins once I’ve hit 90% of HRmax.
Thanks. Ronnestad sure gets some interesting results, doesn’t he?
Not confident abut my FTP. I strongly suspect that the ramp test gives me a number that needs fairly significant dialing down if I’m going to base my workouts off of it.
Same when I used to tun. I had pretty good 5k times, but those times never really matched w.g. the heart rates prescribed in the prominent running plans like Daniels or Pftizinger. I do think my engine has always skewed to the anaerobic side, which means I really should notch down my ramp test FTP a bit.
Thanks - I’m going to check that out
I like both. I find 30/15’s and the like much easier to perform indoors given my local terrain. 4-5 min intervals are easier to perform outdoors. I find that both elicit about the same time in zone that I’m after. The short-short style kick up respiration higher, but don’t seem to generate the same levels of lactate that the longer 4-5 min intervals do.
30/15’s are great for building repeatability, which comes in hand for cyclocross racing. Longer intervals help build mental fortitude and seem to be more road-realistic in that most moves are in that 2-5 minute duration. In short, I like both.
Thanks. How many hours are you putting in a week?
Corollary being that you also have to do enough hard time at a hard level.
However, I’m not sure there is enough hard sessions for cyclists, depending on how you calculate. For instance, if you are doing 2 months of POL, 6 sessions a week, that’s 10 hard sessions, or 1 every 8-9 days. That’s probably not going to contribute to any meaningful or lasting adaptation. However, if you’re going off hours, you could create a different structure. Say 10hrs/wk, that’s 80hrs w/ hard 16hrs which you could structure into 2x1hr/wk which would be more beneficial.
[edit: see this post for proper calcs on the matter. 
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Well that’s what it looks like athletes are trying to do; figure out a way that best fits them to have enough intensity and volume at the same time. For some, that may be only 1 intense session a week. Others may need more or may need to really impose a certain amount of time at a level that they perceive to be hard. I’m realizing i’m in the latter category as a single session of set intensity isn’t “hard” enough. I need to do more sessions (likely 2 a week) and hard enough such that I hit 90%+ Max HR during the entire interval. It’s not bad, I just think it’s how I seem to best fit to the protocol.
Which is why I also think Polarized training has been hard to grasp for lots of us type A people; we want a specific answer to the question so we know what we are doing is right. The answer is very likely that what is best to do is much more individualized than what we do now. What is hard for you may not be hard for others and vice versa.
For me, Polarized works as a general approach for my current goals and training availability. The kind of flexibility it offers is refreshing for me as I found SS training to be a bit too much “do the plan exactly or else” for my liking both physically and mentally. Moreover, it just fatigued me so badly that if I didn’t eat like a horse I could barely recover for my next effort. May be a sign of adaptation but when you are on a diet like me, that quickly becomes a massive problem.
But if SS works for you and you see gains, totally go for it. If it keeps working why change anything? Or as they say in the diet literature, “everything is working so well, please help me to mess it all up.”
Cool! Thanks for that. I’m going to try doing both for the remainder of this block as my 2 hard days. Already love the 5 minute Hard starts so I’m excited (scared) to try 30/15s. Would love a bit more repeatability abilities.
Normal weeks have been around 10 hours per week lately. In my winter base block this year I started at 7 hours after a break and then kept adding an hour until I got to 13 hours. Then I took a break and Covid19 hit and training has been crazy since then.
https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Captain_Doughnutman: your maths seems to be out.
2 months = 8 weeks, say = 48 sessions. 20% hard = 48/5=9.6.
8 weeks = 56 days. So hard sessions are once every 56/9.6 = 5.8 days.
Or in simple terms, every fifth session is hard. Most weeks, one hard session. every fifth week, two hard sessions.
I’m in the last week of my POL experiment and am trying to decide what to do next. I have no racing on the calendar, but some friends and I have decided to do Strava segment challenges by which one of use creates a route and includes 4 or 5 segments. We count time only on the segments and the person with the fastest cumulative time wins. Simple.
After doing a couple of these it seems like the trend is segments ranging from 30s to 2 min. I suppose this is something I could use to periodize my training. It’s kind of the only thing up for grabs this season unless for some reason other racing happens.
So where do I go from here?
Curious what you folks have planned after you conclude your 6, 9, 12 week (or however long you plan) POL block.
I semi-retract this comment. The ramp test was perhaps not the best fit for measuring POL end results. A few SS workouts later, I did a TTE test and recorded all new all-time 10-60min power PRs. Something good must have happened during all that training!
I love quoting myself. 
Now that the training is done and the adaptations are starting to kick in…I have to say that my POL block has kinda amazed me.
During all the training (8 weeks), I, like probably everyone who does POL, felt like it’s too easy and/or nothing is happening. I did a ramp test almost immediately after finishing the block and bombed it – down 5% from the start. But then…after a week of noodling around…B 
M!
I felt strongish and like my zones were off. Did a TTE test…almost 60mins (my longest to date) to regain the old FTP (but probably higher). A few SS workouts during the last 2 weeks, culminating today with Wright Peak +2 – 4x30min SS – which I turned into a 1x30min + 1x100min SS sesh.
So…in the 2 weeks since ending my POL block, I’ve set brand new all-time power PRs from 10min to 120min inclusive. In addition to doing my longest ever TTE and longest ever SS interval. As well, my heart seems to be more better stronger and “stable”, e.g. the first two 30min SS intervals av 90% FTP but at a 78% FTP HR (70% HRmax).
This might have been the result in switching stimulus, or maybe it actually works (for me). I dunno but I might try it again. Just not sure how I’m going to get ‘pandemic time’ ever again… 
New study, fulltext not out yet:
Are there any longer term studies on this topic ?
I’m fairly interested in it - I’ve recently read 80/20 Running book, but he also only cites short term studies like this one.
6 weeks is literally nothing in endurance training. I would love to see some data on 1 or 2 years programs - but I guess it’s probably extremely hard to setup such a long study.
I’m finishing an 8 week POL block this weekend. Averaged 6 rides week, 9-11 hours, 450-600 TSS, closer to a 90/10 split. Hard to determine the effects from it but I definitely noticed a little improvement on my bottom end from all the Z1 rides. At the very least, it’s gotten me to extend my duration on some of the longer rides. I used to think 90 min was a long Z2 ride.
Still not sure I like it much. Maybe another tool in the bag and maybe I blend it with a more pyramidal type scheme next time. Something like 70/20/10. I think my body responds better to more SS/Thresh work so I’ll probably tweak a TR SS block by adding more Z2 rides to increase the volume without the added stress.
Let it bake in.
I thought the same thing when I finished my 8 weeks of POL. After a week of feeling kind of blah, I was flying. Finished POL 3rd week of July, spent Aug setting a lot of all-time power PRs (literally half of my rides since POLend have had new PRs).