yup, % HRmax is highly individual and why they both gave 70-80% HRmax as a general starting recommendation. And then refine.
Ha that last sentence hit home. I read Skibas new book here and the last few weeks have pushed up my endurance ride intensity closer to 75% with some low tempo sprinkles…it makes me very hungry to the point where I’ve actually started fueling with carbs during endurance rides where before I didn’t feel the need to.
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Are you eating during those workouts? At 270-ish ftp and adding warmup/cooldown that is a 2.5 hour workout for me, and burns 1600-1800 calories. I’m absolutely fueling those workouts at 500-700 calories of things like Cliff and granola and fig bars. My coach advised eating vs my previous liquid carbs, and I found it helped.
Yeah RPE and ‘hard’ is relative, I’d say that 75% ftp takes focus and feels like a strong/robust workout. Guess I could call that hard for an endurance workout. Easy for me is 66-69% ftp, that’s what I target if feeling off from outside stress including allergies.
Without lab testing its all part of a puzzle you need to solve, for yourself.
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You could ride slightly easier and not fuel for the first 90 minutes and then fuel (maybe increase the intensity) and get the same benefit?
Why? Part of the benefit from my point of view is wearing a groove in pushing 200W (average or normalized) for 130 minutes. I’ve played a little with different fueling, and without lab data the only difference I can tell is recovery and ability to support doing 6 hours Mon-Wed, and another 4-6 Fri-Sat.
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Because it affects the signalling.
Plus recovery is not affected as you fuel the reminder of the ride and after the session. Recovery has nothing to do with the first hour.
Not a good idea. That can cause a lot more stress to your body.
Depends on the body size and power but you need to fuel z2 like normal.
Solid foods are possible so a bit nicer than drinking gogo juice.
Z2 means >3hours of course.
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Nscyd prescribed tempo to lower vLamax, or… “medio” right?
It’s a long and complicated road to get from an activated signalling pathway to actual performance improvements. Plus anyway if you’re going down that rabbit hole it appears that low end-session muscle glycogen is more important than pre-session or withholding carbs for the first part of the session
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I’m chasing overall performance. The signaling discussion is a bit off in the weeds, at best a marginal gain. I’ve experimented quite a bit with morning workouts and only fueling after 1-2 hours and/or completion. Have not been able to see any performance difference in my data.
Since this is an ISM thread, I tend to focus on the big picture that ISM writes about here:
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Yes. Feb 2019 for me. Even though I understand the skepticism that tool has garnered****, it was the first time I considered the notion of riding low-mid tempo deliberately and as a central part of my training. So it was an important step for me. I joked with my roadie buddies that I trained “like a triathlete” because at the time the only TR workouts I could find at .75-.80 IF were in the triathlon plans. LOL “How is this EVER going to improve my FTP?”, I worried.
I later refined it with Steve’s ideas and then various consults and informal discussions like this one (usually with older riders who often jokingly and semi-condescendingly said: “you know that’s just tempo, right?”).
What also happened quite a bit in 2019 was much discussion about “gray zone” this and “no man’s land” that. “There are no magical zones, dear athlete, except the one I use in my coaching plan” LOL. Anyway, I’m not bitter much. I know we’ve beaten that horse to death. Just glad I finally figured out what works for me.
*****my vLamax was already .22. Despite not “needing” to lower it, I did medio work anyway. Besides the first year I rode a bike, biggest fitness improvements I’ve had…but not because of Inscyd per se…cause tempo…I guess 
Or all of it.
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Since January 1st I’ve been doing endless rides on county highways with cars flying by at 60-80mph. But there is a large shoulder and the Varia radar helps alert me to move over and puts me over 6’ from traffic.
Without a top tube bag I’m beginning to prefer bibs with mesh pockets, maybe I’ll get a top tube bag some day. All of my winter bib tights have pockets. Only 1 pair of summer bibs have pockets. I’m going to buy more of the summer bibs with pockets (also handy for carrying a pump!).
What I do before a ride is quickly guesstimate calories needed based on ride, cut off the top of my Cliff/granola/fig bar wrappers, and put into either my jersey or leg pockets. During the ride I grab one, take a bite, and return my hand to the bar. No real skill to hold the food with hand on handlebar. Empty wrapper goes back into the bottom of the pocket. Leftover food goes into a ziplock in the garage, for the next workout.
I’m only using liquid fuel on longer 4+ hour rides, or harder 3+ hour group rides. Below that my stomach prefers separating fuel from hydration, and my ftp is not high enough to create fueling challenges on 2-3 hour rides.
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Makes a lot of sense. I know you’re no longer using TR for training, and I can understand why given your experience and perspectives. Thanks for sharing your knowledge here. For those of us that don’t invest the time in really digging into the science and how one’s body responds it sure is challenging to decide what voices to listen to in working on personal performance. Your three bullets make a lot of sense. Thanks!
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I’ve pedaled a lot of miles since SSB1 HV - my first TR plan. Everyone is different, so whatever you do, listen to your body!
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It was a question, not a statement.
I’m questioning if that is fundamentally what is being done when training in ISM Z2. Running down gylcogen forcing adaptations. Of courrse if his zone 2 is higher you are going to run gylcogen lower quicker (and for longer), as you can’t replace it a quickly as it is being depleted.
Therefore doesnt it follow if not trying to maximise Carb intake during Z2 you’ll get most of the adaptations in less time (or more gain in the same time.)
Not sure that it is margin gains, it seems that phase is used to often when it is something not understood, or I’m not interested in doing whatever it is because its more uncomfortable or difficult.
Maybe for another time and another thread… but I thought it maybe tied in with work at top end Z2 and into Z3?
ISM also raises an important point about ultra distance. I did a ride a week ago with 11 hours 5 mins of ride time and 1 hour 20 mins stopped. I’d forgotten my wallet , which meant I could not get the hot meal halfway that planned. I ended up needing to ration the snacks I had on the bike. Like you I’m not great about eating whilst moving, so I’d stop once an hour unwrap some snacks sat on bike, then get going again slowly whilst I ate them. Even though I was in my Z2 with low tempo on hills, the duration meant I burnt through my glycogen over that time, and I had to seriously drop my effort levels towards the bottom of my Z2 for the last couple of hours to finish and get back home.
I’m now looking at liquid carbs to supplement my snacks on these long rides mostly Z2 and low tempo. You can under fuel (or even not fuel at all) the shorter Z2 / low tempo rides (2-4 hours) of this nature and get away with it (as in no issues), but it gets you in bad habits because you end up doing the same fuelling on your longer rides and it bites you. It might not bite you till 4,5,6 or even 8 hours in, but bite you it will.
I’ve usually poo pood liquid calories, but there’s only so much solid food I can eat as the duration of my rides goes up. You get to a point where the stomach shuts down with solid food if you ride for long enough.
Training isn’t just about your fitness, but also working out your fuelling needs for the type of events and style of riding you do.
Just a general remark, there is no muscle glycogen sparing by ingesting carbs during the ride. And one does not burn through muscle glycogen quicker when not ingesting carb during a ride. Muscle glycogen sparing occurs only by reducing intensity or being better trained (for a given duration).
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Thanks, that clears that up. I remember seeing that before now.
(Currently trying to get 10g / kg BW in for the weekends Marathon, it is as hard as the training, not even 11am and bored with the carbs already.)
Re: Dr. Iñigo San Millán TP article read that before, thanks for posting, read it again
Kenyan runners 76.x % Carbs…
My today so far…
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What’s the screen snippet from, be interested in reading the article it’s in.
and sort of related
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