Indoor endurance workouts soreness

Thanks. But I was also looking at cadence where that seemed to be less smooth inside and the combination of the two metrics which leads me to a possible way to explain why indoor erg mode makes my legs more sore. The soreness is what I care about. Not saying I want to avoid it if the soreness means some bottleneck in my performance is increasing but then trying to understand that bottleneck

Iā€™m getting eye strain from looking at Strava, @enki42 so here is a quick outside (Jan 2021) vs inside (Jan 2020) from my filesā€¦

Outside 4 minutes endurance pace, about 17W standard deviation around the average power (about 172W):

Inside 4 minutes at lower endurance power, about 7W standard deviation around the average power (140W - when ftp was lower vs above):

That was dual recorded, TR PowerMatch via BT controlled the trainer, BUT the power trace above was recorded on Garmin 530 via ANT+ connection to Stages gen3 dual-sided crank power meter. Less variations in power and cadence. Picked that inside ride because it was around the same cadence.

What Iā€™ll say is this - after two years of using Erg I concluded it generated some unnatural feelings, and I was falling into what felt like a trap of reinforcing habits that didnā€™t translate to outside. From that conclusion I decided that focusing on the fundamentals was more important. So I stopped using erg, and never looked back. When I jump on the trainer now, it feels like outside (sim mode).

Donā€™t be afraid to experiment, and good luck!

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FWIW, I find small ring ERG is harder as far as ā€œsorenessā€ is concerned. I ride big ring as that is the ring I ride outside unless I am climbing a steep incline. I use the KICKR 2020. My wife finds ERG small ring harder so she just uses sim mode. I will use small ring IF I am working on climbing mode.

Two hypothesis:

  • This could be another case of using an FTP thatā€™s too high, and you are doing Tempo and SST instead of z2.
  • your seat is too low?

Indeed. I started with a indoor FTP few months ago and that is another difference in muscle load after an endurance ride then before. Maybe it is also a trainer issue. I have a tacx Neo and a Tacx FLux. With my flux (when i compare with my favero pedals) under 200W my Favero gives mostly 15W less. This is not the case with my Neo. When I go higher in wattage this reduces. And if I compare this ā€˜feelingā€™ with an outdoor session, the Flux seems more natural then the NEO in Z2 range.

Endurance workout are pretty tough for me on the trainer as well. One key aspect being that they usually fall directly after a tough workout and the legs are fatigued. This applies outside as well though.

The other thing I noticed with ERG is that I build up unnecessary tension in my lower and upper legs. Almost like resistance against the power enforced by the trainer. I can drop the tension by focussing on it without dropping power output. I assume this affects RPE and soreness. Anyone else noticed this?

100% agreed, that is the reason (and apparently the only reason) that caused me muscle soreness almost to the point that they became chronicle.

There are two issues listed in the post to which you replied. Is the ā€œ100% agreedā€ for both of those, or one in particular?

  • Thatā€™s already been done and mentioned in his OP.

It is seen as ā€œnormalā€ power in the rides he linked:

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The FTP being set to high for indoor (sorry).

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Off topic - do you have this graph/data that you could share publicly?

This is something that Iā€™d been thinking about earlier this year.. I was suspicious that when you were in a little gear up front in erg mode that force would be applied equally throughout the pedal stroke (function of angle versus applied force would be constant), rather than variable like actually on the bike. And that this may be part of the reason why indoor FTP is lower in many people. And why using the small ring in erg mode is more difficult. However I couldnā€™t find any actual data on this.

If you have data that suggests that the standard deviation of power as a function of angle is much lower in the small chain ring than the big chain ring even in erg mode, this would prove that pedalling in erg mode (at least in certain gearings) is fundamentally different physiologically than on-bike, and would explain a lot of things.

This has been mentioned multiple times above. if you take a sweet spot ride of threshold ride of an hour with an average wattage of X and you do an endurance ride with an average of X (i.e. both are the same average wattage) it would seem like the endurance ride should be easier in that if you exclude the warmup aspect keeping a single wattage output should be easier then going hard with breaks. Now in my case the average wattage of the endurance rides is ~15% lower.

Plus the soreness sets in early at around 10 mins in and only very slightly increases as the duration increases. Harder efforts arenā€™t less sore, but there is still a big difference in how soreness from the endurance efforts goes away in under 30 minutes after a workout leaving my legs feeling ā€œnormalā€ again like no reason not to jump on the bike again. With the harder efforts the soreness stays around like I just did something hard that I need to recover from.

Thanks. This was sort of the main reason for asking. In that its not bad and I know there can be pain to training so if its normal then Iā€™ll just accept and move on.

Already have been fitted. The main drivers of my legs are what is sore, so quads. And now that I switched from 172.5mm to 165mm cranks my hamstrings and glutes feel it a bit too, but still mostly quads. (Part of the switch to shorter cranks was to get more muscle activation of more then just my quads being the main driver which seems to be happening but its only been a few weeks now. This crank length change is a seperate thing as the soreness is the same before and after the crank change.

The fatigue part only happens over an hour into the workout. The soreness starts much earlier. SMO2 (as measured by a Moxy) doesnā€™t show anything happening when soreness starts or fatigue setting in.

If this was from something like compartment syndrome Iā€™d expect my smo2 to drop more as the pressure would decrease blood flow. So hoping this is more an endurance thing that is trainable

Did that a long time ago. Also was using power data from my pioneer power meter cranks. (the new 165mm cranks donā€™t have power but just got Assioma pedals to become my main source of power but not in use yet)

Without erg mode I tend to not push as hard and the metal burden of keeping my wattage up makes it much harder to do workout. (guess Iā€™m not really a natural athete and too lazyā€¦)

Historical data will be hard as the pioneer web site doesnā€™t exist anymore

Torque across the pedal circle? No, I do not. However when I have NOT been working on my pedal stroke (combo of volume, speed work, etc), I have been able to repeatedly do the following and show an increase in HR in little chainring:

  • warmup endurance power for at least 30 minutes
  • continue doing endurance power
  • do 5 minutes in little chainring
  • do 5 minutes in big chainring
  • do 5 minutes in little chainring
  • do 5 minutes in big chainring

And in this indoor controlled experiment, my HR will usually be higher in little chainring. I say usually because once Iā€™ve been riding a lot, doing speed work, etc., and my pedal stroke is smooth across the circle, I tend to not see much difference in HR.

Regarding the warmup, I have data showing my HR takes about 20-30 minutes to stabilize.

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I feel the same but always thought, from a training perspective, that was a good thing, particularly when doing endurance Z2 efforts. ie Constant pressure on the pedals.

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I tend to agree, and itā€™s the reason I train in ERG with 34x17 most of the time.

This is quite a can of worms with no firm answer to be found, but I commonly see the "ERG is not like outsideā€¦ or ā€œItā€™s differentā€¦ā€ comments, which then imply or directly state that the difference is somehow ā€œbadā€.

  • Is it though?

Without driving hard down the rabbit hole here, I think there are possible reasons that the ā€œdifferenceā€ here may be a tool to be used in some cases rather than avoided. Iā€™m not saying that ERG in low gearing is the be all, end allā€¦ because itā€™s not. But I think the common conclusion that it is not good because of those differences is a mistake and lacks consideration beyond the simple ā€œtraining should match outsideā€ ideology.

Much of this boils down to the specific reason behind each session where this might apply.

  • Are you aiming to mimic outside loading and conditions?
  • Are you aiming to apply specific demands on the body to drive adaptations (which may mean un-outside-like work)?
  • Or is there a mix of the above and even other considerations?

My main point is that I donā€™t see this as a black and white option.

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My take - make inside as close to outside as possible. No ftp differences, no training differences, just get on the bike and either way the training is the same.

For me, and others, Erg and little chainring can lead to a ā€œbig enoughā€ difference in ftp estimates from a ramp test. There have been threads on it.

As a big guy and a lot of times in 2.7-3.0W/kg range, doing a LOT of low speed / low momentum climbing, I donā€™t feel like Erg and little chainring does a good job replicating road feel of climbing.

For those reasons I donā€™t use the little chainring inside, and have completely turned off Erg when inside.

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For me, after long offseason indoor doing endurance, LT1 type of stuff using ERG in the small ring, when I go back to the real world the road feels very easy in my legs. Somehow the constant pressure of ERG seems to facilitate some extra muscular endurance adaptation, which I donā€™t mind.

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I have been doing this in my training this go around. In the past I did training with a higher flywheel speed, and I think I was doing myself a disservice. This year I am trying lower flywheel speed to better replicate outdoor riding. My gears are 31/30. I am a mountain biker and itā€™s the slow constant grinds up steep hills that get me. Keeping the flywheel speed on the kickr core low seems to best replicate that.

I usually donā€™t do endurance work on the trainer (low volume plans donā€™t have much endurance). But, I am in a rest week. Petit and Baxter have been surprisingly difficult compared to a similar effort outside (with microbreaks etc).

Like OP soreness / pain builds up in my quads and just sort of sits there. But, it feels very similar to outside while slowly trudging up a steep hill.

I may do tomorrowā€™s endurance workout at a higher flywheel speed tomorrow and see if that same pain develops.

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But how do you do letā€™s say Vo2max workouts indoor at high RPM? On a big chain ring?
For me indoor itā€™s almost impossible to spin above 100 RPM (outdoor I can do this better). So I struggle with vo2max intervals indoor because I fatigue too soon when I try to hold a high cadence.
My indoor FTP is also lower, mainly because I have the feeling my muscles have to work harder to complete the full pedal stroke (tacx neo 1). The inertia storyā€¦