Indoor bike - buy new or new groupset?

Equipment
1

I have a spare full-time indoor bike just for the trainer.
Looking for 2 sets of advice - whether I should abandon my current setup and go for a cheap new bike, or whether I should just go for full/partial new groupset on the current frame.
If the latter, the bigger question is how creative I can get with the drivetrain.

Current setup is a 2nd hand Specialized Allez on a Kickr Core.
Tiagra shifters, crankset (50/34), rear derailleur. Claris front derailleur. I think either 105 or Ultegra cassette (11-34) - whatever I could get at the time.
The ride is not great, not smooth, and it is prone to dropping the chain when Iā€™ve been on the small ring and moving back up. Its ok, but has never felt smooth on the trainer as much as it does if I try another of my bikes (hence, not a problem with the trainer). I use the appropriate spacer for 10sp on the trainer hub.
The Allez if I put back on its original wheels, feels fine on the road. Hence Iā€™d thought it was a matter of indexing the gears, but I took the whole kit to a store for that, who spent an hour on it and told me it was fine - Iā€™d just some chain rub on front which I knew about (either very top or very bottom gear rubs on the front derailleur chain guide a touch, regardless of screw adjustment).
Also no matter how much I cleaned the bike when purchased, and put on new cassette & chain, it still has dirt and residue on the drivetrain meaning its black and minging - which in theory ought to be avoidable with a purely indoor bike.

So I find myself considering a new bike, for fresh drivetrain, for clean drivetrain, and hopefully start fresh and get a smooth ride from it.
I can get a Specialized Allez for Ā£650 just now with Claris, or Ā£989 for the Allez Sport with Sora.
Trek Domane same specs for about Ā£700 / Ā£1,000.
Decathlon options, at Ā£850 for a Triban RC520 with 105 seems great, but my size hasnā€™t been seen for a while (6 months+).
50/34 and 11-32 gearing sees me lose a bit off the climbing gears - currently I have 34:34 for when I face the Alpe du Zwift.
Iā€™ve also never had less than Tiagra on a bike in years. I borrowed a bike with Sora on holiday a few yr ago and it was rough shifting, but the bike wasnā€™t well looked after so had a few issues.

Should I just get the new cheap bike and accept only 8 or 9sp gearing and less gear ratio? Will I notice significant drop in shifting quality?

So then I wondered - the frame, stem etc is fine. Possibly even the shifters are salvageable (though theyā€™re old and scuffed) and I donā€™t care about wheels or brakes. A new drivetrain or even partial drivetrain is probably the cheaper option.

But then I further considered I could get creative with gearing. Iā€™ve always felt on Zwift I could power a higher gear. I struggle more with leg speed but Iā€™m a big guy (102kg) and for years on the road I used to ride what I think was referred to as the ā€œproā€™s compactā€ - a 52/36. AND I ride 170mm cranks on my current road bike so changing to get close to my current main outdoor setup makes sense I think.
So I was then trying to figure out, if I bought a Tiagra or 105 52/36 cranksetā€¦ could I then buy the Medium/Long cage rear derailleur and put an 11-34 cassette on the back?
Giving me 52:11 4.73 to 36:34 1.06 gear ratios, new/clean drivetrain and 10 speed?

Iā€™ve been to 2 bike shops about this. One said yes, one said no.
The guy who said No, said it was due to 52/36 and wide cassette exceeding the Tiagra rear mech maximum tooth count (though Iā€™d never have reason to ride in that gear, and he specified Tiagra, it occurs to me maybe a 105 mech has wider range?)

So ultimately its new bike or new groupsetā€¦ and if the latter, whats the best gear ratio setup I can get without paying silly money?

Other notes:
Bottom bracket has ā€œBC1 27x34ā€ printed on it which I think means its a BB-RS500 cartridge unit, Iā€™m guessing that would need to be replaced.

2

What I can say isā€¦
Mixing an matching lines may be working but is always risky. Crossing lines of the same generation will have more luck (esp if more recent ones.) It just takes a tiny cable pull distance difference on the shifter to make a the derailleur ā€˜never right.ā€™

Lower line develop more ā€œplayā€ over time. To keep the prices low manufactures use less expensive materials and lower manufacturing tolerances. Unless extremely well maintained they will develop a lot of ā€œslop.ā€ What you are calling ā€˜rough.ā€™

If the frame isnā€™t too old, Iā€™d upgrade the group set. If you want new then look at 105. Iā€™d buy everything used. Talking to local shops, you might find a ā€œtake offā€ set ā€” when someone buys a frame with a high spec group set and the shop needs to sell of the ā€œusedā€ but never ridden group set. All bike parts are hard to find these daysā€¦but 105 is the most often upgraded to Ultegra ā€” making 105 used pretty common. Keep everything the same series (generation.)

Modern 105 was also designed for a wider gear range to work in the ā€œAge of Gravel.ā€

Just one persons thoughts.
Collect several more.

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Two quick thought: in the current market, a new bike with a new groupset might be easier to get than just a new groupset.

Regarding your gear ratio debate. I donā€™t use zwift anymore, but I thought there was a setting ā€œtrainer difficultyā€, which is a bit like a gear ratio adjustment. Maybe try playing with that, so you can keep a gokd cadence with the gears you have.

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I did read back when I set it up that some needed the 2 spacers - but it was horrendous with 2.
It wasnā€™t even great with the Wahoo ones the trainer came with, I ordered Shimano ones instead.
Ultimately I went with whatever the thickest one was of the options I had (same as what goes on it when on a regular wheel with shimano/sram freehub).

Iā€™ll see if another store will have a look, but Iā€™ve had it in 2 now and one of them spent at least an hour on it checking out the cassette, hub, gear indexing. The other didnā€™t look much at the current setup (bit of a waste of my time hauling a heavy trainer into them) and just advised going for the new groupset as cheaper option.

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I seem to be able to find either Tiagra or 105 with 52/36 and 11-34 cassette (all mix n match bits). On Merlin cycles for example, you pick the bits you want.
Ā£614 though for 105 - when I can basically get a new bike for that.

Any thoughts on whether 52/36 and 11-34 is viable?

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This is a setup/adjustment issue that could be solved. Or, get a chain catcher so it never drops.

Iā€™m assuming that you are using wax to lube. Getting a drivetrain sparkly clean takes an enormous amount of effort and steps - multiple baths of different solvents, scrubbing, boiling, alcohol rinse, etc. Even after all that your wax might be a touch grey after a little grease works it way out of the chain.

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This sounds like the issue is with the alignment on the trainer cassette. If that is the case, a new drivetrain for the bike wonā€™t help you.

You also say that your other bikes are fine on the trainer - going by that, there is something odd about the Allez and the gear alignment.

Apart from the cassette spacers, is the axle length correct?

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With the derailleur, the issue I believe is that its the Claris derailleur and its ever so slightly not quite right tolerance. Hours of my own trial and error with the adjustment screws, same by a bike shop, where it is now is as good as we could get it.
And when I rode it on road/with wheels for a handful of times, never had the issue.

Iā€™m actually not using wax - is that an issue? I figured since the crankset was already used outdoor Iā€™d give it as good a clean/brush as I could on the bike, but I then used wax-based lubricant, and then latterly have just used dry lube.

I figured if I get a whole new groupset then a full wax dip might be a good option?

The cleanliness isnā€™t really the main issue though, the roughness in the ride is more than just a little lube difference.

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It would be easy enough to source the correct derailleur.

For cleanliness, I donā€™t think itā€™s going to matter whether you get a new groupset or use the old one. A chain is always going to turn black if you use an oil based lubricant. It just turns black slower when used indoors.

If you can get all the parts squeeky clean, then a wax dip would probably keep black grease from forming. As I said, squeeky clean is not easy to achieve and wax dip is a whole thing unto itself.

I use a drip wax (Smoove) and it still turns grey/black and flakes off. Itā€™s not greasy though. The best lube for an indoor only bike might be a good topic for the forum.

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Off topic, but I use squirt and itā€™s very easy. It doesnā€™t flake off either for me.

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Iā€™d go for the cheaper option.

You donā€™t need such extreme gears on an indoor trainer. I would advise you to ditch the front derailleur and get something like a 11-32 (not 11-34) cassette or a SRAM 11-36 cassette.

Here is the thing: if you use erg mode, you could get by with one gear in principle, but 3ā€“4 gears in practice ā€” you would just use gear shifts to quickly change your cadence. And in erg mode you should not use hard gears, i. e. you should not use your big chain ring because your trainer will have a very hard time to hold a steady power output.

Even if you use your trainer in resistance mode at times (I do), you donā€™t need a large spread of gears. After adjusting the resistance properly, I am in my second-lowest or third-lowest gear during off intervals at 40 % FTP. And when I am doing sweet spot, I am in gear 5ā€“7 depending on the cadence I shoot for. When I do VO2max, I donā€™t think I am beyond gear 8 much. I only use the other gears for out-of-the-saddle efforts and ultra-low cadence drills (think 50ā€“60 rpm).

So you should be fine with a 10-gear 1x setup. Iā€™d recommend a 40-tooth chain ring. With a big-little 1x-specific chain ring, I donā€™t think you will be dropping any chains (in the front). You would also only need one functional shifter, the other one would just function as a grip. Youā€™d have less maintenance (just one cable to take care of and one shifter to adjust).

Even for Zwift, I think a 1x setup (perhaps with a 11-36 SRAM cassette with a 40-tooth chain ring) would probably be fine. Just to give you an idea: my top-end gear on my aero road bike is a 42:10 = 50:12, and I top out at 65 km/h, which is plenty. And I am fairly fit.

As the others have said, you have to be careful mixing Shimano groupsets. Depending on which generations you are talking about, the pull ratios of the rear derailleur might be the same or different. AFAIK the current-gen Tiagra RD has the same pull ratio is its 11-speed brethren, which makes it incompatible with e. g. 10-speed Ultegra or DuraAce gear.

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Thanks for the reply.

Though Iā€™m not sure I really understand parts of it.
Iā€™m using the turbo almost entirely on Zwift, Iā€™m not doing vo2 max and FTP training (I know what these are, I was a semi pro athlete in a contact sport in my 20s so used to get vo2 max tests on treadmill etc).
But these days itā€™s mostly using the competitiveness of races/crits on Zwift to get me going. And on those I find the 50 - 11, I could turn a harder gear. Maybe I could adjust the trainer settings somehow, but I donā€™t really understand how that works.
Conversely when riding the Alpe du Zwift, which I do every 4 weeks as a baseline endurance/fatigue guage, I need the 34-34. I could probably get away with the 36 front ring or 32 cassette. But my road bikes last few years have all had either 50/34 and 11-34 or my Bianchi has 46/33 and 10-33. So I am used to having a 1:1 climbing gear.

Frankly I only use maybe the 3 highest and 2 smallest gears on the trainer, Iā€™m either grinding away in the high gears or needing the climbing gears.

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This was not obvious to me. Since you posted here, I thought you were primarily using TR and doing Zwift on the side. Hence, my suggestions were aimed at optimizing your setup for TR.

That seems like an oddly high gear on an indoor trainer without a driven flywheel. What is your self-selected cadence?

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I have never self-selected a cadence?

I just ride. Largely the reason I abandoned specified training for Zwift events is that personally I found itā€™s more closer to real-world riding than how I found specified training.
I am in the 60s a lot of the time.
Iā€™m a big lad, 102kg and was a rugby & American football player - when Iā€™m spinning on a slightly lower gear I just canā€™t retain the same Watts output. So at 64rpm Iā€™m generally putting out 300 Watts, if I drop the gearing and ride 85rpm Iā€™m spat out the back of groups.

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60ish rpm is really low and could be bad for your knees if you maintain that for a long time. Iā€™d try to lift your cadence to at least 80ā€“85 rpm on the (virtual) flats.

Iā€™d definitely make an effort to lift your cadence bit-by-bit. Also, the fact that you are spat out when you lift your cadence indicates that your cardiovascular system is your weak link. (Generally speaking, if you lift the cadence but keep the power constant, you shift the burden from your muscles to your cardiovascular system.)

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Oreo speaketh the truth here. And on a related note to the original dilemma of ride quality and parts, etc., your self-selected cadence of 60 isnā€™t doing your groupset any favours. Thatā€™s a lot of constant high strain grinding that you could work on fixing to improve ride quality. I would wager the smoothness of the groupset would improve greatly with quicker cadence (this also impacts has well your bike shifts).

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same hereā€¦ in fact I use wax for everything but indoor trainer now

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This is something I just canā€™t fathom when it comes to the trainer. And perhaps the answer is in the settings for it, as Iā€™ve changed nothing (everything is at defaults).
But Iā€™m not a great cyclist, Iā€™m 102kg and only ride in spring-autumn probably once or twice a week most of the time. Instead of 2 x 60-80km rides that I can get done outdoors, on trainer the intensity of the events means I generally just ride for about an hour or, tends to be 28-40km in total (some of the crits are only 20km).
My FTP is 260 estimate on Zwift, so Iā€™m not at a high level.

I donā€™t ride that low a cadence on the roads. In fact since I got Sram AXS Iā€™m spinning now more than I ever have, and Iā€™m good with that especially noticing it better on climbs.

But in Zwift, if Iā€™m going at 100rpm I am only putting out about 200 Watts and when youā€™re over 100kg, thatā€™s obviously under 2.0 w/kg and youā€™re gone even on the 0% sections.
I feel I have to ride in higher gears, and hence lower cadence, to keep up.
If I try to pedal faster, in the higher gears - thatā€™s when it feels like Iā€™ll suffer knee issues because it feels like too much load on my knees.

If I spin, I donā€™t have cardiovascular issues first - I can ride like that for 30 minutes if need be, the problem is that whilst my legs are spinning at 100-110 rpm Iā€™m losing the group.
So does that mean I need to somehow spin even faster (120 rpm), or does it mean I need to ride a harder gear but still spin at 100+?

I donā€™t have many gears to play with on this - in the 11 at the back itā€™s the hardest gear, if I drop 2 sprockets at the back Iā€™m already getting dropped, definitely if I drop 3.

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Not downhill - I deliberately redid the flat stage of the Zwift Tour earlier to trial this out, and on the 0% I was consistently between 66 and 72 rpm.
And I was doing about 300 Watts.
Iā€™ve never gotten anywhere close to 1200, ever, I think the most Iā€™ve hit even for a second was 860 or something like that - I certainly donā€™t have strong legs when it comes to the pedal stroke (having played contact sports for years I was more trained for power lifts).

I genuinely canā€™t make my legs go faster in the 50-11 gear though, the muscles tire and tighten and as another poster suggested I even after a while feel it a bit in my right knee.
Hence I drop down at least one gear to spin, but usually to get close to 100 I have to move down 2 gears or 3. So by then Iā€™m in either 50-26 or 50-23 (the 34 cassette being 34-30-26-23ā€¦). And whilst I can spin at 100 rpm there, itā€™s putting out about 200 Watts and I get dropped.

I have when I first got Zwift, mucked about with a 2nd fake profile to see how much difference weight makes. It really adds drag - I was 106kg at the time but I set up a 2nd user at 76kg to see the difference and its crazy how much it matters on the flat. I completely understand why it makes a huge difference on climbs, but in real life Iā€™m riding and my mate (who is about 80-85kg) is clinging on even though his FTP is much higher than mine (he rides for a team in Cat B on Zwift year-round). So in real world I can hold my own on the flat, itā€™s as if Zwift overemphasises how much effect weight has when not on an incline.

27

Here is what I think is happening: you wrote earlier that your FTP is 260 W, i. e. 300 W is VO2max territory (115 % of your FTP). And with 100 kg you have strong legs (they have adapted to deal with your body weight), but your cardiovascular system isnā€™t very strong. So you lean on what is currently the strongest: your leg muscles. The lower the rpm, the more you shift the burden towards your muscles and away from your cardiovascular system.

But if you want to keep up, you need to improve your cardiovascular system.

The point is that you should sift down rather than just increase rpm in the same gear. It is highly unusual for someone (who is not a pro) to be in 50:11 on the flats.

100 rpm is too quick for most, the recommended cadence range for most is 85ā€“95 rpm on the flats with some people being on the lower side (think 80 rpm) or on the higher side (100 rpm). If I were you, Iā€™d try to shoot for 80ā€“85 rpm. Spinning at 100 rpm feels quite unnatural if you havenā€™t trained for that. Most people tend to like to spin faster when they are moving faster: the rotational inertia of the wheel tends to keep things spinning, and you can get away with a more uneven, ā€œstompyā€ pedal stroke. On an incline (or on a low gear on the trainer) you need to keep on the more for the entirety of the pedal stroke, so most people favor a lower cadence.

Overall, try to increase your cadence, but be reasonable. Extend the range of cadence where you feel comfortable over time. This has nothing to do with you weighing 100 kg, this is just training. Youā€™ll get there eventually :slight_smile: