How does one work this out? Guess someone also needs a pretty good FTP test for this as well. I think I have a pretty huge difference between indoor and outdoor.
Ask yourself what wattage you can hold for an extended timeā¦lets say 40 minutes or more. You may know for sure having tried it or you might just have a pretty good feel. How does it compare to the max 1min power from a recent ramp test? If you are getting into that 82, 83, 85% range maybe a vo2 block might be the way to go.
Of course, you might just be getting AI ftp updatesā¦in that case if you find you received an updated FTP and it just seems like too much maybe a VO2 block could help move you off your plateau. Just keep in mind it may take a while to digest that training adaptationā¦donāt expect to be a world beater in the 1st week after completing the block.
I guess this implies that off a ramp test if my 40min FTP is higher that the magic 75% then I need vo2max, if lower I need threshold? Is that correct?
The relation changes very slowly or even never. The other thing is case of individual physiology. For example, according to WKO my FTP is always around 82-84% of my pVO2 max/MAP or whatever measurment you use, no matter what I do. But my FTP is also 75% of my 5 min power (and I have very poor anaerobic capacity, no peak power in sprint etc, I am very aerobic rider and very slow twitch dependant ). So what is conclusion here and actionable prescription? I do not know. Just do everything from Z2 to vo2max. When the gains stop, introduce changes to training.
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So quite my chance (or Googleās algorithm) I came across this article here from Highnorth -who do some really interesting articles: How to improve your lactate threshold as a cyclist ā High North Performance
Towards the bottom the article says:
A final point is that itās helpful to understand where your fractional utilisation sits before undertaking any training. Letās take two hypothetical athletes, where Athlete 1 has a high lactate threshold but a relatively low aerobic capacity (56 ml/kg/min), where the threshold occurs at approximately 85% of the VO2max. Athlete B has a well-developed VO2max (e.g. 68 ml/kg/min) but a low threshold and fractional utilisation of this VO2, where they step over their threshold at roughly 65% of their VO2max. Clearly, there is a difference in physiology. Athlete 2 would benefit enormously from plenty of lactate threshold-focused training, whereas Athlete 1 would be much better avoiding threshold training in favour of developing their VO2max. This is because Athlete 1ās VO2max is acting as a ceiling to their lactate threshold rising much further. In contrast, Athlete B is unlikely to see big progression in their high VO2max but has a lot of space to work with to bring their lactate threshold up, in both absolute terms and as a % of their aerobic maximum.
What I canāt figure out is how to measure / estimate your VO2Max at threshold power - so any pointers much appreciatedā¦
The article continues
Noteworthy in this example is that Athlete 1, even with their significantly lower VO2max would likely beat Athlete 2 in a typical road or MTB race. Thatās because at 46 ml/kg/min, Athlete 1 is below their lactate threshold (and therefore not suffering with an accumulation of fatiguing metabolites) and Athlete 2 is above their threshold, since they step over at 44.2 ml/kg/min (compared to Athlete 2ās 47.6 ml/kg/min performance VO2). This is part of why athleteās with lower VO2max values can beat those with higher values, and demonstrates why VO2max is not the all-encompassing determinant of success it was once thought to be.
Which is very interesting, but the main point for me is I want to reduce my heart rate for the same power output which I think should decrease strain on my body / help with sleep issues which arise from higher intensity exerciseā¦
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Look at your power curve - assuming you have some good maximal efforts in there - and divide your best 40 minute power (or your FTP) by your best 5 minute power.
Thatāll give you a ballpark idea of a figure, from which you can track changes in response to training.
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What I canāt figure out is how to measure / estimate your VO2Max at threshold power - so any pointers much appreciatedā¦
If you mean you want to measure ml/kg/min at threshold so you can compare it to ml/kg/min at VO2Max I donāt think you need to. When people are talking about comparing VO2Max as a % of threshold they are talking about power at VO2Max compared to FTP. Eg. my VO2Max( 5min best power) is 360w, my FTP is 290w, my FTP is 80.5% of my VO2max.
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Agree. Calculate a figure based on power as you described. If itās below ~75%, raise FTP as a priority. If itās above ~85%, raise VO2 Max as a priority.
Test and track the change in your number over time and change your training as appropriate.
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Thanks all. So my 5 minute best is 280 and my 40 minute best (based on actual power) is around 200 so it sounds like I need to work on threshold rather than VO2Max. That said I havenāt gone all out for 40 mins outside - not easy here due to traffic and hills / descents maybe its around 220 - which gives me 78%.
Probably best for me to work on a polarised base plan.
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if you have an actual 5-min best, simply compare to your estimated ftp. What is the % of that?
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Iād guess thatās 220/280 = 78% or so.
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Sounds like a good ballpark number if the 280 was from an all-out, nearly falling over at the end of 5-min effort? And 220 FTP from that same time frame?
Although this a popular idea, I donāt buy it.
Why? Because I followed this basic logic about 30 y ago. Reasoning that since I could sustain ~90% of my VO2max for over an hour, I needed to raise my āceilingā, and did Hickson-style 6x5 min intervals on the ergometer in the lab 3 d/wk for 18 wk. I did 4 h of easy riding spread over the other 4 d. IOW, I tried āpolarizedā training long before the term was ever invented. This resulted in my highest-ever VO2max (but by only 0.05 L/min). I then went and did the state TT (my target event), and got my helmet handed to me.
Moral of the story? Specificity, specificity, specificity, specificity, specificity.
Or, to put it another way: train for performance, and let your physiology sort itself out.
ETA: Almost a decade later, I took another run at the TT at master nationals. Having learned the lesson above, I did zero VO2max intervals, spending my āglycogen budgetā on 2-3 2x20 min sessions per week on the trainer for 12 wk. The last few weeks in particular were quite difficult, as I kept raising the power slightly in excess of the rate of āgrowthā of my FTP (so that I went from doing the efforts slightly below to slightly above that intensity). This approach enabled me to sustain 5-10 W more during the TTthan I ever had before, and I was well on my way to another podium appearance until I flatted out at about the 30 km mark.
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Athletes and coaches, possibly/probably, because they usually canāt measure VO2.
Exercise physiologists, OTOH, are almost invariably referring to VO2, not power, as that is the lingua franca of the field.
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But once you reach plateau with current training regimen, wouldnāt you need different stimulus to break it? And can return to previous training plan again once ceiling is raised.
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[quote=āWindWarrior, post:36, topic:87281, full:trueā]Sounds like a good ballpark number if the 280 was from an all-out, nearly falling over at the end of 5-min effort? And 220 FTP from that same time frame?
[/quote]
Yup - Iād guess both of those were within 4 weeks of each other, probably during August / September when I had quite a lot of cycling (partner & kids away). Sounds like I need a mix of VO2Max and TH.
I thought Iād need more TH because I find TH sessions much harder than VO2Max sessions!
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Or you just have patience, keep your nose to the grindstone and continue to eke out tiny gains, or you back off for a bit then take another run, or you choose to spend your glycogen budget on something unrelated for a while, all of which I have seen work.
What Iām arguing against the idea of some rule-of-thumb that tells you whether your cardiovascular fitness or your muscular metabolic fitness is what you should target. Instead, that choice should be on the basis of your competitive goals.
TL,DR: Train for performance, let your physiology sort itself out.
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I think itās more useful if you either donāt have competitive goals or youāre 6 months away from racing.
Also more useful if your rule-of-thumb fractional utilisation is 90% or 60% than if itās 75%, as either of those is sending a much stronger signal as to where you might want to focus your efforts over the next training block or two.
Unless youāre a track sprinter or triathlete and those low and high percentages are par for the upcoming course.
Hair successfully split. I donāt like this feeling.
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Ultimately, there are very few universal truths because weāre all so different and so are our goals.
I shall now get changed and put on my āHave a snack and ride your bikeā T-shirt.
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