You’re assuming everyone else is carbing up at 90+g / hour……based on my experience with group rides (with some very good riders), that is rarely the case, even to this day.
3 Likes
This is getting silly. Ok, fine with me. 25 grams an hour it is then, or less. Best of luck to him.
I think it’s irrelevant what everyone else is doing. He said he’s going a pretty good pace relative to his fitness, and he isn’t fueling that much.
We have to infer what “Pretty Good Pace” means, but there’s a good chance that means an IF high enough he needs more than 25g an hour for rides of 3+ hours. Silly that we’re even arguing about this. He should go try it at different intensities and see if it helps - one of the easiest possible things to try.
(edit - saw your follow-up - I think we’re all saying the same thing)
3 Likes
That is a pretty simplistic interpretation of what I said…do I think he should be consuming more carbs than he is? Yes. Does that mean I think his fueling is the cause of his issues on the group ride in question? Definitely not.
1 Like
Which is exactly what I said in my first response…he should dial back his efforts in the first two hours of the ride to save something for the final hour.
As you note, he is going at a pretty good pace “relative to his fitness”. Fueling is not fitness. The reality is that 2 additional rides / week (3 total, including the group ride) is not sufficient for him to hang on at the end of the ride.
ETA - agreed, we are essentially in agreement here. 
1 Like
Yeah, I can do that too. In zone 2 we’re typically burning about 50/50 carbs and fat (the crossover point is around 60%), so at 220w that’s around 100g of carbs (400 calories) per hour. So you can delay your fueling, but you still need it. And then back to the whole point of the post, does it make sense to advise the OP that he doesn’t need more carbs when he’s struggling after 2 hours?
I really can’t understand why some of you are so proud of riding with little fule, or more accurately delaying your fueling. You’re just artificially handicapping yourselves.
Especially when the OP insisted he was adequately fueling. Nevertheless, @hubba persisted and asked specifically how much the OP was fueling. That’s when he answered 25g per hour.
So, IMO the OP needs encouragement that 25grams is not enough when he is lagging the last hour. The same would be the case if the OP was insisting that his low volume was enough for what he is trying to do.
Fueling and volume go hand in hand if you want to keep up with people who have more endurance than you. 25 grams likely isn’t enough, and the OP should be guided toward that realization and not away from it.
2 Likes
You could say that more cowbell er… volume could help almost everyone, but many of us are already taking on the amount of volume we can currently handle and fit into our lives. 
With that in mind, it might be best to try and find any/all of the ways that the OP can improve their performance in these ~3-hour group rides without increasing their volume first.
I’d say that it’s important to know how hard you’re working on these group rides @runski just as @BCM mentioned earlier. If you’re riding above zone 2 from the gun, I’d say that carbohydrate intake during the entire ride is definitely going to affect your performance towards the end significantly. Everyone should be fueling appropriately regardless of their fitness level. 
Pre-ride nutrition is also really key just as @Caro.Gomez-Villafane mentioned. If you’re not getting a lot of low-intensity riding in, your metabolic fitness might not be as strong as it could be which could make consuming carbohydrates on the bike even more important. Coming into the ride with your glycogen topped up makes a really big difference in my experience – even during rides less than 3 hours long.
I’ve gone through phases where simply riding at the top of zone 2 without a decent amount of carbs was really tough for anything over an hour. I simply wasn’t very good at utilizing fat and needed more carbs even at that intensity.
Would getting in more zone 2 riding or volume, in general, be a big benefit? Absolutely! We would probably all be faster if we had the time, energy, and resources to ride more. For those of us who are only riding three days a week though, it can be hard to stimulate all of your energy systems enough to push the needle across the board year-round.
In these cases, shifting a good chunk of your volume to longer zone 2 rides early in the season could help build up your metabolic fitness even if you’re only riding a few days a week. I like doing long easy rides (as long as time allows) and then having a fast finish to get a harder effort in with some fatigue in my legs. These types of efforts help a lot in situations like longer group rides, and sustained efforts (anyone run marathons?).
A simple and immediate test would be to ensure that you’re eating a carb-rich meal ~2-3 hours before your next ride, and fueling with the appropriate amount of carbohydrates/calories each hour based on your power output and FTP. Making sure that you’re as well rested beforehand as possible by arranging the rest of your training in an efficient way just as @Caro.Gomez-Villafane mentioned could also help immensely.
Let me know how this goes and if you’re still having issues, don’t worry too much! There is a group ride out there that’s too hard for each of us. 
I’d be happy to take a look at your training plan and chat some more about how you might be able to continue to build fitness with the resources you currently have so you can hopefully stay with that group down the road. 
Best of luck!
6 Likes
I don’t think anyone advised against more carbs but you can carb as much as you want with no success if you don’t have the fitness in the first place (volume). I think the OP realised that. Once you’ve developed the good engine you can manage it very effectively with the correct amount of carbs. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive though and there is overlap.
4 Likes
I don’t think anyone is saying that.
2 Likes
You a little bit missed the point.
Fat burning varies widely, and it depends on where in Z2 you are as well as the individual and their training. But, it’s very feasible that someone could ride 3,4,6 or more hours in Z2 without having any performance impact if they’re well trained or just going slow enough.
That doesn’t mean you should, nobody was acting “proud” that they can, nor are people necessarily handicapping themselves. I have rides I’ve done it and would do it again, I have rides I fuel at 125g/hr from the get go. It depends.
No, you don’t NEED to fuel during an easy Z2 ride. There are definitely times I prefer to eat more after instead of hammering gels. There are Z2 rides where yes, you do NEED to if you don’t want to see performance decrease.
4 Likes
Absolutely 
no one has said don’t take more carbs.
However, more carbs wont paper over a fundamental problem… fitness.
Needs repeating.
A combination of issues for the OP imo.
4 Likes