Sure is. If it feels controlled, it’s slow. I know it way too well.
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Maybe there should be a MTB version of this thread. I will post thoughts here and @mcneese.chad can move if desired…
2020 for me has been the year of trying to improve my MTB flat cornering. Road turns and bermed turns are similar while flat dirt corners are a different beast.
I’ve pretty much watched ALL the videos, took a long lesson with Lee McCormack and forced myself to ride an enduro bike on trails where it’s way too much bike just to work on intentionally getting the bike to break loose/washout to really understand how hard I can push things.
I’m not as good as I would like to be but here are my 3 lessons from this year:
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Line choice is underrated. This was told to me by a friend and it’s so underrated! Better lines make the importance of cornering technique much less relevant. The basic elements of cornering are the same for everyone and for the most part we all do the basics naturally (bike lean, countersteer, more weight on outside foot, etc.) albeit to differing degrees. Line choice is very much a learned skill. I did a long race this past weekend and it was amazing how many riders ride down the middle of the trail going up, going down and going around corners. Don’t follow the middle of the trail, choose the path that is optimal for your given speed.
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Don’t “dead sailor” around corners. In gravity mtb dead sailoring is when you jump and once you are airborne your body turns stiff in the air with heavy tension in your arms and legs generally listing to one side and usually ending in a crash. I’m willing to guess most of us have come into a corner hot, felt like the bike was going to wash and just tightened up, hit the brakes (which stands up the bike) and eventually blew through the outside of the corner. Work on staying relaxed especially in your core.
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Bike body separation matters. When you allow the bike to move under you it will allow you to compensate for unplanned moments in the corner rather than being locked into a predetermined destination. I have a ways to go but my body is much more loose and flexible and the bike is moving around under me more so than before. This allows the bike to lean more if necessary to really dig in those cornering knobs rather than just coming in on a predetermined line/lean and ending up off the trail for fear of washing out when that line doesn’t go as planned.
My keys for knowing I’m doing this well are…I’m generally off the saddle or to one side of it for mild turns. My body is mostly perpendicular to the ground while the bike is directionally more parallel. Finally, while the other elements are happening I can move the bike around under me in corners. Sometimes higher, sometimes lower sometimes rapidly changing between the two. But my body position is relatively unchanged with the bike moving all around under me.
Good shot of what I’m describing:
Cornering video here:
Sorry if this is a derail of a more road focused thread.
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@KorbenDallas Seriously you need to match your cornering skills with your road skills.
One of the best aspects you can up skill is to learn to read the road. By this i mean read the hazards ahead, road furniture, junctions, standing water, condition of the road surface, camber and the sharpness of the turn. Much of this comes from experience and elevating your vision as you approach the corner. Build your skills slowly as it can go wrong very quickly.
One of the best suggestions i received was regarding the vanishing or limit point in a corner (https://www.survivalskills.co.uk/riding_skills_30.htm) Get your entry speed sorted before you start the turn into the corner, the benefit of this is that your bike is stable upon entry and you can get the power down early as you smoothly exit. Master this aspect and you will fly through unfamiliar corners.
You need to relax and stay on the drops and remember to enjoy the experience and if you do decide to master the art of cornering remember to always cycle within your ability. Keep your movements smooth at first and your speed will increase.
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My issue isn’t understanding how to corner, it’s still absolutely not knowing/trusting the point at which my tire will lose traction. Our contact patch is so small, 3 small rocks are probably all it takes (is what I tell myself).
I assume I corner slow (never done crits) and will always be slow. Oh well. Tri life haha.
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I had one of my worst/best crashes flying around a corner in training and hitting a quarter-sized patch of sand/gravel. The time between me seeing said patch of destruction and going down was almost zero. Messed up both my wrists and put a hole in my Tour edition ONCE jersey.
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And you’ve just fortified why I will continue to (presumably) be slow around corners.
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But I still managed 3rd at the Prov Crit Champs a week later! 
I’m not sure if I am slow through corners but I sure did/do have a confidence problem. I get over it by doing two things in particular with my positioning on the bike:
- Weight. All of it into the outside pedal. +10kg.
- Get my chest as low as possible to drop my center of gravity.
All the rest is line choice, timing your breaking, and maybe a bit of counter steering for stability but you cant really teach those things, they come from experince.
I wasn’t exactly sure what you meant here? Are you talking about descending and cornering? Or more criterium (flat) cornering? I’m good in criteriums but, I’m sure I could be faster descending and cornering. As I theorized my cycling has benefited from my ski racing days with having to understand line across all kinds of terrain, light and conditions. I think I’m better in criterium cornering due to the things you wrote. I think I could be better descending because I hold back in part due to the fact I can’t see around many of the corners…
What’s weird for me is how much of a wimp I am on a road bike descending a hill I don’t know (and still on one I know), vs how I’d take the same situation on a pair of skis. The speeds are not that different, the trees are not that different. And on hardpack the surface is not that different either… I just feel 100% at ease on the snow, and 85% scared on the road.
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@rocourteau same. I’ve taken some horrendous crashes on the skis. Team mates have died hitting trees even. But, I think hitting the tarmac is still more terrifying. I’ve done it many times and each time was like diving into a wood chipper. Crashing while skiing was more like waking up the next day after having sex with a stranger. A bit awkward and maybe embarrassing but, never wood chipper terrifying.
I think skiing I feel like even when it goes sideways I can pull off a Houdini. With cycling, when that tire lets go there not a damn thing you can do. Like someone wrote, it’s not really knowing where that fine line is. Maybe in skiing there was no line…I mean there was, but, for the most part, unless it was a crazy DH, it wasn’t there.
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I’m going to use that, thank you. 
where do I send the royalty checks?
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I like cornering on both. But fundamentally cornering on skis is how you learn to stop, it’s a position of strength and easy to move in and out of. You can be mid carve and still slam on the breaks without much consequence. Whereas on bike it isn’t. Once your in you can’t scrub speed, your line is pretty much your line and you can’t stop until you go straight (and run out of road).
The other riders in the group I regularly ride with, make snide remarks about my cornering. They laugh at my reluctance to lean hard on corners, my overbraking, etc.
But, when I check Strava, I am like in the top 25 to 30% in the downhill segments (road riding) . While Strava is not a very good measure because you get all sort of riders there, I thought that this might mean I am just average or below average, not a disaster.
I think I have to work on the mental aspect, I do get scared in descents. I am less scared of motor traffic , some people wouldn’t like my commutes at all, but then a little descent makes me hyperventilate and think of everything that could go wrong.
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The biggest advice I get and what made the change is to look where you want to go and to what you want to avoid.
It sounds funny but just try it and everything else will follow
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I don’t know if you’ve ever raced DH or SG, but let’s say that the consequences increase exponentially with speed and tighter turns. You have some room to manœuvre at turn entry because (and that’s one of the main differences with a bike) you are mostly unweighted, but you have little to none on turn exit as you are fully loaded.
The parallel to a road bike in a descent is that your options at turn entry - braking, line - mostly disappear once fully committed into the turn.
This is the #1 rule in cornering…before anything else about technique, when to brake or accelerate, etc.
Look where you want to go and you’ll go there. For may riders, we look too close in front of our wheels instead of through the turn and where we want to go. This tends to get exacerbated when riding in a group.
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This works on a bike, in a car (even when drifting in snow), on skis - name it. Stare at the lamppost you want to avoid, and you’ll steer right into it. Stare at the apex where you want to hit it, and you’ll nail it.
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You’re probably right. I mentally frame my cycling as hobby level and therefore on par with my skiing (mainly off piste, some race training lessons for fun / fundamentals, never competitive) vs reality which is my cycling is competitive and therefore not comparable. By definition if you’re competing in any like sport, your cornering will be on the limit and full commitment.
It very much can depend on your group. When I started riding the group I went out with were all ex mountain bikers and motorbikers…they could fly down hills unbelievably. I learnt so much from them but always THOUGHT I was a poor decender…then I started entering races and riding events and with other groups and found myself constantly dropping people downhill and it was actually a big strength of mine!
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