I *Thought* I Knew The Difference Between VO2max And Threshold

Yeah, “intro to zone5” and why my coach labels most above threshold intervals as z5 and not vo2max. Progressions and minimum dose are also like a dimmer switch, start on low and gradually turn up.

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The recovery time makes a.huge difference

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VO2max the power zone, aka “Zone 5” is not the same as reaching a high percentage of your maximum aerobic capacity.

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Try having 2 FTPs that are over 15 watts apart, you definitely wont know the difference between VO2 Max and Threshold!!! :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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This.

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TrainerRoad has its interpretation of Coggan’s zones :man_shrugging: I’m not judging or debating that, just pointing out obvious stuff.

:rofl: Like chalk and cheese.
Don’t mix your hard days up with your easy days.

And this is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

Here is the most related TR support article I can think of to link (and seems to have been referenced if I see the screen shots right):

FWIW about six years ago Coggan replaced the zones above threshold with new zones, and explained that above threshold the zones need to be individualized. TR is effectively individualizing your training zones above threshold, but still using the old zones. It’s a little confusing so don’t get too focused on things like VO2max = 106-120%.

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Strangely, that chart just lumps ‘Sprint’ into the Anaerobic category – even though there are distinct sprint-specific workouts in the TR catalog.

FWIW, though I hung in there for the 4x4@106% with 4min rest, I’m reasonably sure I’m going to crater attempting 4x4@105% w/ 2min rest.

Ah, well, given that 2.5 months ago it was unclear if I’d ever ride again, it’s all gravy!

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Good call out! I’m in short power build and once a 6.4 PL or so is reached the intervals seem to hang out in the 125% range. I thought I’ve seen as high as 130% but couldn’t find it in my calendar.

you can pull up workouts, filter on vo2max, maybe set time to 1 hour, and sort by TSS or IF or something. The 125+% ones should sort out near the top.

I’d like to return to getting thoughts from others about " the difference between VO2Max and Threshold", rather than debating the difference between workouts, that may or may not be one or the other, or both.

Obviously neither is the overall objective, ie, both are different aspects of the ‘means to the end’. That said we still to know more about what each contributes and hence what each is and is not. Hence, the questions this raises for me are more like the following and it would be great to hear riders opinions.

What is Threshold and how do you know you have reached it, gone beyond it, etc?
What is VO2Max, how do you know you have reached it, gone beyond it?
What training objective do they each have? Presumably there is a difference?
What exertion level (zone), duration and repeats would be typical of workouts for each?
Are the Ventilatory Threshold levels pertinent to both, ie, VT1 and VT2?
How do you test the outcome of each?

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First thing I learned on a bike, before buying a power meter, was learning what it felt like to ride at threshold in group rides. Started out riding hard for 10+ minutes and then blowing up. That’s above threshold. Then I rode solo and learned to pace myself on the edge, going hard but not blowing up. And even getting dropped on group rides I extended that to 15 before blowing up, then 20 min before blowing up, and eventually to 45 minutes which is how long it takes for the first regroup on a drop ride. On a HR graph its easy to see, here is a 1 hour all-out effort on a 90 min group ride, 4 months after buying a bike:

that same picture repeats ride after ride when doing an all-out group ride, or a ~1 hour time trial. And this chart in TrainingPeaks:

shows my threshold HR to be about 160bpm, so that’s one way of knowing after the fact.

More importantly - by repeatedly blowing up on drop rides I learned what it felt like to ride on the edge, push a little too hard and start to blow up, and then dial it back just a little and keep riding hard without blowing up. Eventually I learned how to teeter back and forth across that edge.

Looking back and seeing my HR was usually around 160 +/- a couple bpm. When I blew up 15 or 25 or 35 minutes into a sustained max effort, my HR was rapidly climbing above 165bpm. Again that’s all rear view mirror stuff from after the ride, I’m too focused in the moment to look at HR on my bike computer. But now I can use that for pacing with or without a power meter. My threshold HR hasn’t changed since 2016.

VO2max? Reaching maximum aerobic uptake (vo2max) my breathing is maxed out and I’m gulping for air like a fish out of water.

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Let me pose a thought about the difference between Threshold and VO2Max workouts.

With VO2Max workouts - I’m posing that we are exercising and training our Heart and Lungs, its about processing oxygen. So, the form of exercise doesn’t matter it might be a running, dancing, weights, boxing. It has nothing to do with FTP on a bike.

Threshold on the other hand, I’m posing for discussion, doesn’t target the Heart and Lung, rather it targets the application of your energy systems to work your cycling muscles at a high level. I say ‘high level’ being intentionally vague as I think it would be good to know what others think threshold level is.

From other posts I might draw the conclusion that Threshold is 100% FTP for a 60min TT? But, I need convincing of that.

VO2Max seems to be above VT2, where you have difficulty speaking more that a syllable. FTP level seems irrelevant.

I think this needs an exercise physiologists expertise.

Table from Andy Coggan.

image

IIRC, this table is about 15 yrs old, and I’m sure there’s a better view available now. But it’s the best view that I am aware of.

VO2max is about boosting the capacity of the cardiac system - stroke volume and a plasma volume (the rows with the 4 Xs).

I’m not sure I fully get the debate on the difference between threshold and VO2max workouts. To me, they are very different - when done squarely in their respective zones.

Yes, at some point there is a blurring at the boundary between the zones, but then your workout is no longer a threshold or VO2 max workout, it’s an in-between workout.

Threshold = ride long intervals (20mins+) as hard as you can.
VO2max = ride 3-5 min intervals as hard as you can.

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Paul Lausen’s research into VO2Max, has led him to recommend much shorter and higher intensity intervals, (seconds) and inactive recovery between repeats. Worth searching online for his more recent work and You Tube.

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Yep - there other workouts to elicit VO2max - like Tabatas. My point above is that typical vo2max workouts are very different than a threshold workout.

FWIW - a meta study from last year indicated 4+ min intervals more effective than sprint intervals at improving TT performance. That’s a little splitting hairs however. Just do Vo2max work!

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339121462_Effect_of_High-Intensity_Interval_Training_Versus_Sprint_Interval_Training_on_Time-Trial_Performance_A_Systematic_Review_and_Meta-Analysis

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