I hate training…that is all

Training
41

I think most people can tell whether they are more fast or slow dominant w/o WKO+ or other analytics telling them. The question is for any given rider what dose of lsd will yield the greatest performance for them vs. lsd+HIIT vs. HIIT?

No I don’t think 1 second power being a high % of FTP is evidence of being fast or slow dominant. You’re a sprinter if you win sprints and so on. Phenotype analytics are interesting but, only as good as the data you feed it. If I start WKO+ fresh and only ride at 50% for 42 days what phenotype would it say I am? IDK but, it doesn’t matter to me…

So I think “more endurance plus stuff for the win” is a safe way to describe it. As long as one can recover it would benefit them to do more work. Sadly, with work and family most of us never really know what that max dose is. I do know an average work, family, riding week for me is roughly 7500Kj’s or 15 hours or 700 TSS. At some point I’ll plateau and the stimulus will need to change. I do know I can recover from week after week of 700 TSS lsd+a fast group ride here and there. After 2 or 3 weeks of 700TSS of HIIT I’d be in the hospital.

Rambling now…not sure where I’m going with all this. :rofl:

42

Then I must not be a sprinter because I can’t get to the finish with the front group :rofl: But I’ll still sprint for the Strava town line win, even if I am 5 minutes behind the 20 and 30 somethings! I dunno about the rest of you, but I keep having Beavis and Butthead moments every time one of you writes lsd and dose. Turned the TV on at lunch an hour ago and what came up? South Park, I’ll take it for the win!

43

Maybe you just need to HTFU.

But in all seriousness take a break, don’t worry about the numbers and just train “old school” by doing KOM intervals or just riding for the sake of being on the bike and or just do zwift races and Z2. I guarantee at some point the switch will flip and the idea of structured training will seem appealing again

44

Join a race league then you have a bit of structure to it rather than just getting on the trainer at a random time and seeing what the next race it.
If you’re in the right category on Zwfit, the races are long over/unders. Some get mad about the races being “too hard” or “not like real races,” but that is because people are dropping watts the whole time. On the rare times when I drop to Z2/Z3, I cherish that like I’m coasting.

45

Yeah I’m using LSD cause I’m old(er) school and zone 2 seems like a buzz word now. Sort of like when FTP was becoming common. People are making it needlessly complex imo.

For sure sprinting for a line with other monsters takes more aerobically than a solo kom in my experience.

46

Not particularly to me. There’s still a norm of reaction (differential phenotypes with identical genotype based on environment) within someone’s genetic constraints and the training they’re exposed to (the environment in this case). Besides, when we label people as fast or slow twitchers, it’s a quick device like saying “a gene for x” when we know there’s a lot more to it, like when people conflate MHC classification with the uh, “metabolic preference” we could call it. Plus there’s a lot in here to potentially unpack about training intensity and whatnot. But when we control for all other factors, I still don’t see much difference (except probably in efficiency/fractional utilization) since everyone needs that training in very large amounts if they can get it regardless. This is not specifically related to one’s endurance capacity, which also has a reaction norm.

47

If you are burning out, then you shouldn’t force yourself to do something. This is a hobby, this should be fun. How about trying something new?

If you are no longer having fun training, then just ride as much as you’d like. Perhaps change disciplines, e. g. get a mountain bike or a gravel bike. Or, gasp, you could try an entirely different sport.

48

hmm, well, I got dropped and then kept doing threshold to the same town line sprint. They did too, but their thresholds are +50 to +100W higher than mine! Maybe another way to look at it is, relatively speaking, we were all dying and at our relative limits before hitting the town line sprint :thinking:

49

If you try TR plan builder with an event a year out, does it give you any time off? Maybe it does now, but I don’t think it used to.

50

It doesnt from the few I have made in the last few months. The only time off is what I plug into the schedule for time off.

51

OK - phew - so you did take time off, but you just feel your mind is circling or maybe obsessing (?) around your race goals. That seems normal to me - I do get excited and obsessed about them too.

Again, this seems normal to me - training isn’t supposed to be fun in the moment, nor is studying intensively to get good grades. But that’s ok as long as you feel good after completing the work (delayed gratification) and you’re getting the recovery that you need. But it’s also ok to enjoy life from time to time. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here and are needing some fun. The non-destructive kind, of course. :crazy_face:

52

The mental breaks are important. Like when you’re sick. You’re sick, you can’t train, you just have to give yourself the week or two or whatever it is and let it go.
Doing it for a break is important too.

I also like cross training on different bikes. Right now a gravel ride is unappealing, road sounds ok, but some single trail on my MTB sounds great, having not done it for a year or so (focused on road and track racing).
I also run, and at times I like the running so much I don’t want to ride.
Can you run with all that snow around? I’m in Australia so snow is pretty theoretical for me…

Or maybe you just have to accept that training kinda sucks, and you have to weigh up how much it all means to you, is all the training worth it for you?

53

It gives you the ability to define your time off now as part of the set up.

I think that’s the appropriate way to handle it.

54

My experience has been similar to other punchy riders.

I would classify myself as a road sprinter.

Obviously, my single experience could be for a billion other reasons, but I definitely improved more from upping endurance training and reducing frequency of intensity sessions. Likely because, generally, fast twitch athletes need more recovery from high intensity efforts. There’s some good recent research on this. This likely makes it easier to accidentally over reach etc.

So, anecdotally, athletes like myself may have simply got our training wrong previously. Then, changed our training distribution and arrived at a conclusion that is just a result of getting it right. Not, that we can or cannot do a certain style of training.

On another note…

Please don’t take this as criticism. It’s just a query.

After listening to your latest podcast, I kind of felt like you missed an aspect of Z2, or I don’t quite understand it correctly (very possible). Do you think there’s no real value to staying below VT1/LT1, or that it even exists? Others I follow have repeatedly explained the reasons why they see benefits to essentially semi capping intensity in these sessions. Alan Couzens is fairly clear about this, for example.

My understanding of Z2 training is a little like your great explanation for threshold. Above it you fatigue much faster etc. I thought the true value of Z2 is that you can accumulate a lot of time, with minimal fatigue, relatively. However, like the upper threshold (FTP) when you cross VT1/LT1 the post training recovery required builds more rapidly, again, relatively.

Essentially, staying in Z2 minimizes the stress response. That low stress response being the major benefit of this intensity level. Not the hypothetical levels of adaptations it does or does not provide in comparison to SS / threshold etc.

I think I did a bad job explaining that…

Anyway, I’m a massive fan of the podcast. I love when the little icon pops up for a new episode.

Please keep at it.

55

That’s a great highlight and something I was alluding to or have alluded to in the past. Bio chemically and physiologically humans respond similarly but, due to many factors what “dose” yields the best performance differ.

Listening to the latest Empirical Cycling podcast now. Also a fan!

edit: “Getting it right” to me means being able to do more work. More work means more adaptations. Week after week, month after month I seem to be able to do more work with a large chunk of work done at lsd (z2 of 6 zone model for @WindWarrior).

56

Living in Minnesota, I dread the time between the end of the cyclocross (mid-Nov) till we get enough snow for cross country skiing; I’m okay with doing indoor rides and training but the sudden drop in volume from bike commuting and group rides makes me super hangry and (if I’m not careful) put on a bunch of weight without realizing it! That being said, once I get to start skate skiing things even out, but all of this is to say that maybe you need to find an outdoor activity that can fill the gap in a similar way (I know a lot of folks who love fat biking, never really appealed to me). I also ice climb, and try to get out rock climbing every once in awhile over the summer when I can, strength training and yoga also help fill the stop gaps in staying injury free and flexible. TL;DR finding a balance helps and (hopefully) makes you a more well rounded cyclist and person in general IMHO. (Hope this ramble helps)!

57

I’m actually the opposite. I feel obligated to race because of how much I train, but at the end of the day I usually don’t like racing that much. On the other hand, I look forward to my workouts every single day

59

i think (will let emp state it themselves though) that the idea is the RPE z2 endurance pace should be at or below LT1.

60

I feel like I would like that if I had the time. I’m lucky to hit 8 hours a week with my job and other life commitments. Above that I’m sacrificing recovery. So with my usual 6 hours a week my base is sweetspot for 2-3 workouts a week and Z2 above that if I have time. I know Z2 has been a big discussion on here recently, and I’m curious about making the switch. But not sure I’d progress like I’d want on 6 hours of Z2 per week. On 6 hours of sweetspot I progressed to my highest FTP ever of 340. Not all sweetspot but my base season was pretty much all 90% FTP rides progressing out to 90 minutes at 90%. So unfortunately I have to go higher intensity for shorter rides.

61

I’m not sure how you got “no real value in staying below LT1/VT1” from the podcast. They talked about things like “Being able to make fun of your friend’s poorly maintained bike while riding the same way you make fun of their flat changing technique standing roadside.” and stuff like that. Essentially, they said “stay below VT1” without saying that directly, but I don’t think Kolie/Kyle would probably be that prescriptive… like you don’t ruin your ride by going into Tempo or gasp even threshold to get over a hill.

I think the big takeaway from a lot of these discussions is that these zones were intended to be DEscriptive and not PREscriptive. In other words, you go out and “ride easy” whatever that means to you (talk test, below VT1, by feel, etc.) and then you come back home, download the ride, and see that, yep, you did a bunch of work somewhere between 55 and 75% of FTP.

Instead, what most people do is sit and stare at their power meter and try to hold 64.3% of FTP (or worse, 3W below Zone 3) bang-on for four hours, and you just don’t need to do that.

Just ride your bike and do so at an intensity where you can ride a LOT without incurring that much fatigue, as you said. The more you do it, the more you know what that feels like.

When I was more time crunched (10 hours being a big week), I’d do most of my endurance riding around 190-200W (280-300W threshold). Now I probably average closer to 12-13 hours, with my longer weeks being 16 or so (and growing!), and so my endurance riding is down closer to 170-175 and a 0.6-0.63IF. I don’t pay THAT much attention to it, and I personally use VT1 as my general marker for endurance pace.