I hate asking this...but I'm so lost in my zone2/endurance rides

[tshortt]

@N8fyn

I know this has been discussed to death on the internet. I’ve gone through so many forum posts, podcasts, videos about endurance rides, but I’m still so lost in my particular case. I cannot reach my zone2 HR without my legs falling off.

I think I’m the only one that genuinely doesn’t think it’s been discussed to death. My reasoning for saying this is that when we ostensibly discuss “zone 2”, the discussion is actually about training overall. So folks on a TRAINING forum get tired of talking about TRAINING. I think what actually happens is that folks get impatient because their isn’t some nice, neat little thing we can all agree upon.

They also don’t want to read little semi-lecture-y paragraphs like I just typed . So here’s maybe some more helpful input:

@N8fyn

I cannot reach my zone2 HR without my legs falling off.

I went almost an entire year in 2017 with sore legs or just overall (but mild) fatigue every single day. I didn’t know to look at it then but I doubt I could have reached my Zone 2 without my legs feeling it either. What was I doing wrong? Trying to “stick to the plan” and simply doing too much. Then after that, a group ride…oh, wait, intervals on Tuesday! You get the idea.

@N8fyn

I feel like I’m still not understanding how to gauge what zone 2 is.

Probably not. You are likely just doing too much overall.

@N8fyn

(without lactate meter).

Won’t help you with this part of the equation. I enjoyed using mine for two seasons and learned a lot, but only a little of that was related to basic endurance riding.

@N8fyn

Sometimes I feel like I’m wasting my time doing endurance rides

I felt that way too. I openly mocked rides like Pettit (that’s just a basic endurance ride that used to show up on Wednesdays, in case someone wasn’t around five years ago). When sandwiched in between quality days it seems like an afterthought. They are important but not immediately obvious, in the same way that literally riding the duration of an event is not necessary to compete in an event (e.g. I’m a miler, so I just run really fast one mile runs over and over…obviously it doesn’t work that way).

@N8fyn

because they’re actually not hard (on the heart) enough

Flawed thinking, but you already have some good input on that.

@N8fyn

But they feel hard on the legs

Then they ARE hard. But not because you don’t “know Zone 2”.

Zone 2 is also not recovery riding. It is volume building that is so fundamental to endurance sports that many coaches have to do this first, before introducing any intensity, even on ~10hrs / week. I’m not suggesting you do this, but just keep it in mind so that you don’t think things like “why is this endurance work even important”.

@N8fyn

“you should be able to ride at zone2 all day”.

…when fresh. Same with any part of your power-duration curve. It’s WHEN FRESH. If you’ve fed the curve, when do you think those values have been established? Usually (always?) when you’re fresh and at your best. They aren’t constants, they are used to provide guidance and track change.

@N8fyn

There’s also a big caveat that I do my zone 2 rides the day after my threshold/vo2 max days

If I had to pick out one thing going on, it’s this.

2:36:12 indoor ride is GREAT…so don’t take this the wrong way…that is a lot. You are likely not recovering if it is that much Zone 2. We don’t just get overload from intensity. It also comes from duration. I’m not saying you’re thinking/believing this, but if you do enough Zone 2, you have to recover from that too. It CAN BE part of the recovery equation, but just riding a day of fairly long Zone 2 will likely not bring back the freshness.

@N8fyn

Friday - active recovery

Lose this. On your hours, no such thing as active recovery (at least, on the bike). Go for a walk. (I re-read and it occurs to me that this might be what you meant…IOW, not on bike. If so, )

[WindWarrior]

@tshortt

2:36:12 indoor ride is GREAT…so don’t take this the wrong way…that is a lot. You are likely not recovering if it is that much Zone 2. We don’t just get overload from intensity. It also comes from duration. I’m not saying you’re thinking/believing this, but if you do enough Zone 2, you have to recover from that too. It CAN BE part of the recovery equation, but just riding a day of fairly long Zone 2 will likely not bring back the freshness.

Right, instead of looking at TSS or IF, look at it from an energy expenditure or work output point-of-view.

For example in the last two weeks I have 3 rides of roughly 1.8 hours (106-108 minutes).

Workout	work kJ	TSS
Endurance	1000kJ	73 TSS
48-min Tempo	1100kJ	103 TSS
55-min Tempo	1200kJ	110 TSS

Actual work completed is a much closer spread between endurance baseline and those tempo workouts:

• kJ work increases of 10% and 20%

versus the bigger jumps in TSS

• TSS increases of 41% and 51%

One interpretation of that - endurance workouts are no joke when you look at work output.

[N8fyn]

@WindWarrior

One interpretation of that - endurance workouts are no joke when you look at work output.

a few weeks ago, I’ve done about 2 endurance pace-specific sessions.
*2.5hr interval - 171TSS - 1100 KJ

• 2hr endurance - 72 TSS - 980 KJ
• rest/recovery
• 4hr interval - 240TSS - 2000 KJ
• 3hr endurance - 118 TSS - 1500 KJ
  interval days will have endurance riding tagged on as well.

I felt a bit tired after the 620TSS week, so I removed a mid-week intensity session the week after, and replaced it with some endurance riding. Which made the week easier, but still a lot of riding.

• 2.5hr endurance - 90 TSS - 1300 KJ
• 2.5hr endurance, 94 TSS - 1200 KJ (back to back)
• another 2hr enduranace after a set of intervals on saturday. 900KJ

I was pretty tired by the start of the last ride, and first hour felt more like zone 1. I think the first hours like these is what makes me feel bad. I had a 2hr endurance ride planned, but felt like I only got 1 hour in. By the end of the 2hr ride, I felt a lot better, and the legs finally woke up.

I think from all the input on this thread, I’m feeling much less guilty about the possibility of riding zone 2 too easy. I could dial it back a bit even more on some days, and maybe push it a bit more on others. It’s way less “strict” than the interval days.

[WindWarrior]

From my point-of-view the endurance work is about conditioning and long-term development. I adjust by feel and don’t worry about lower or higher power.

IMHO there is some performance benefit from pushing higher power, around z2/z3 (Coggan levels/zones) doing steady endurance+ workouts just above the lower aerobic threshold. However for myself, those can lead to burnout.

[tuff_plantano]

@N8fyn

I think from all the input on this thread, I’m feeling much less guilty about the possibility of riding zone 2 too easy. I could dial it back a bit even more on some days, and maybe push it a bit more on others. It’s way less “strict” than the interval days.

Yep, absolutely this - particularly if you’re endurance days fall in between hard days.

For me what works on those days is to ride by feel and ease into them, you can always increase the power as you start to loosen up. And if not, no worries - find a pace that’s comfortable and don’t worry too much about power and heart rate

[cnidos]

@N8fyn

I think from all the input on this thread, I’m feeling much less guilty about the possibility of riding zone 2 too easy. I could dial it back a bit even more on some days, and maybe push it a bit more on others. It’s way less “strict” than the interval days.

I would agree with that take home point too.

The point of “z2” work in this context is basically to consistently accumulate as much aerobic training as possible, in a way that minimizes the fatigue from doing that work interfering with your subsequent interval/high-intensity sessions.

Some days this may be a true recovery ride. Some days this may be riding at 0.62. Some days this may be riding at 0.7. If your recovery is great then maybe you do it at 0.75 and even into tempo range. Ie: the goal isn’t to hold an exact prescribed power every single time.

It’s all just aerobic work. The more the better, provided it doesn’t cause unproductive fatigue.

[Jolyzara]

I agree with now that I am old. But IMO when you are young and competing at a high level (or striving too)… if your mileage isn’t interfering with your workouts, at least a little bit, you probably aren’t doing enough.

[TooManyDogs]

@Abe_Froman

On of the biggest things i learned from listening to a lot of the kollie moore stuff was that zone 2 should be easy.

Not doable for a long period, but easy.

What’s a long period? 2 hours? 4 hours? More? Less? What’s easy? In my experience cyclist’s definitions of “easy” are drastically different.

[Abe_Froman]

Hah yea I dont have all the answers. All i can say is that for me…with a 195ish heartrate…dropping power ~30 watts and HR from ~145 to 135 on zone 2 rides made a difference from zone 2 being very doable, but also very draining/fatigueing at 3-4 hr lengths, to more relaxing, if that makes sense. It doesnt really feel like work at all until a couple hours in.

[Abe_Froman]

The thing that kind of switched in my head was really processing that the stimulus is time with zone 2, not intensity. So once I started thinking about, what intensity will I enjoy riding at for 4-5 hours and not have it seem like a massive workout, things changed

[TooManyDogs]

At least outside, I definitely go by feel for my endurance rides. I’ll glance at power to make sure I’m not getting excited on a ride and jumping in to tempo. I’ll glance at HR to to see if it’s doing anything weird mostly to see if it’s spiking or just way outside the norm.

I guess for my endurance rides I’m less worried if I go a bit too easy than if I go too hard. Right now with some nice cooler weather my RPE has guided me into the higher part of my zone 2 range. Once the hot weather shows up I expect that to drop a bit.

[WindWarrior]

@cnidos

Some days this may be a true recovery ride. Some days this may be riding at 0.62. Some days this may be riding at 0.7. If your recovery is great then maybe you do it at 0.75 and even into tempo range. Ie: the goal isn’t to hold an exact prescribed power every single time.

here here, last night with a 60-80% FTP target range:

Start easy, be patient and let the power come, and ride into it progressively. That was about 70 minutes of steady riding, usually shoot for 70-100 minutes of that sandwiched between warmup and cooldown.

[airteluser]

So, do i understand correctly that you guys look at Power or at RPE as Zone2 and less at HR?

[therealemm]

Yes.

Generally I ride at the higher end of z2 power in the beginning, and ramp down power to keep my ending hr near the high end of the z2 hr range. (at say 2.5 hours). (edit for edit) → I don’t ride to rpe for z2 generally.

[airteluser]

I would not be able to match middle or higher Z2 power with Z2 HR. HR would always rise quite quickly and become Z3

[therealemm]

Then I’d personally suggest you adjust your power to match what you consider to be your z2 hr. But that’s just me. I’m not a coach. Other people here are and they might (read will) have different opinions.

When I was first onboarding to long z2 rides I just used zwift robopacers and tried to keep my hr near what I considered to be optimal z2 hr for long periods. The power fluctuations and attention focusing nature of those rides helped reduce the sort of ‘flat’ fatigue of riding at a specific power. It also helped me understand what my z2 power looked like and how my hr drifts over longer duration. edit to say the thing about those robopacer rides is you get a nice fluctuation that can help you ‘feel’ where the right power is, and feel when it is changing.

[Bob_C]

no one has mentioned cadence. Differences in cadence make an enormous difference in heart rate at the same power. What cadence are you riding at.
The difference between riding the same power in erg mode at 80rpm and 100rpm can be 20/30 bpm. Try upping your cadence

[Abe_Froman]

The biggest thing for me, is ride at an intensity that:

1. You wont feel tired after
2. you wont mind riding long durations

“The time is the stimulus” is the line I remember on this…

[MSB]

I find z2 work outdoors to be generally unfulfilling.

I live in an area with rolling terrain and it feels like I’m constantly shifting to keep the power in range, and when I get home i’m wondering why I bothered to get all kitted up. As a result I struggle to keep z2 work from becoming tempo.

I can’t be the only one that struggles with this, but I’m almost certain this is something that is holding me back in terms of progress.

[Helvellyn]

How are you assessing that the Z2 power you’re trying to keep to is appropriate for you?

If you want to ride a little harder, why not do it? It might do you more good than harm. Obvs, if you’re going to be less strict with the power then you need to be more strict with making sure you’re recovering afterwards, both acutely and chronically.

TL;DR - you won’t necessarily implode if you do your Z2 rides a little harder.