Thanks!. Based on a non rigorous, informal survey of the 5w/kg riders I know, it seems that the requisites for achieving 5w/kg are:
- A minimum VO2max of 60-65 (untrained)
- Early start in athletics (any)
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For the life of me I cannot find where intervals.icu gives a VO2 max estimate
Its on the /Power page on the right hand side at the bottom of the Best Efforts table. The algorithm used in based on your best 5 mins power.
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I participated in a study where I was vo2 tested over a 6mo period. I was training 3-5 hpw (no structure and just riding easy) in the beginning and 6-8 hpw in the middle (with intervals) and no training at all in the end (1-3hpw for 1 month - I got injured and sick).
I tested vo2max of 68 in the beginning, 71.4 in the middle, and 66 at the end. These were all in a lab at a university.
Weight was between 74-76kg throughout. I was not 5w/kg throughout the whole period, but would say a was mid to upper 4. Didn’t do any formal testing.
Note: I have never been a big ftp/TT type rider. I have always had big vo2 power tho. Last year, I tested 5min power at 6.5 w/kg, 3min at 7.5 w/kg, but had ftp of ~4.8w/kg. This was with much more training than the vo2 testing (9-10hpw).
I think ftp is a bit misleading. For example, your top miler/1500m runner is rarely your teams top half marathon or 10k runner. For some reason in cycling, we assume these talents are across the board based on ftp.
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Mine just has the “crying with laughter” emoji where the number should be.
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Yeah, if one starts with a high enough VO2max, the details on how you get to 5 w/kg are largely irrelevant, provided there’s enough stimulus and reasonable general practices.
Now, show me somebody that reached 5w/kg with a starting VO2 max in the mid 50’s….
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Second is definitely not true. I didn’t have an early start in athletics, hated sports in school etc. I started cycling when I was 32 and hit 5 w/kg 18 months later.
I didn’t even lead a very healty lifestyle until I was 31. Smoked daily, drank a lot every weekend, did coke and other drugs on a regular basis etc.
Garmin puts my VO2 max between 74 and 80; intevals.icu puts it at 66.5.
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Good. It makes it even more transparent.
riding at 5wkg requires around 55 ml/min/kg.
Assuming 85% of the vo2max at ftp a rider needs a vo2max of 65.
Lots of assumptions and assuming an average efficiency but does not fall much further than these numbers.
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What is a realistic, average increase in VO2max over say 2 years?
Might be of interest… not cycling specific though. There are loads of studies on PubMed - a quick review it seems intensity and type of training (not just duration of training) could have an impact.
Results: After 3 years of training, in MET and FET athletes the performance improved by 1.77% and 0.69% (P<0.01 and P=0.579), respectively. In Class A runners, training resulted in non-significant increase in performance (-0.04%) (P=0.982) and in Class B runners, performance increased by 3.16% (P=0.001). In all groups VO(2max) remained essentially unchanged. Longitudinal changes in the VO2max were not related with the changes in running performance in any group.
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Should this be the main takeaway?
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Super impressive consistency. Way to go, 2 key workouts per week followed by a ton/some z2 seems to be the way, progressive overload, and seems like you learned really quickly on what worked for you. What testing protocol did you switch to?
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Yes.
Everyone can make meaningful improvements in fitness given their starting point.
Elite level athletes are born with potential that the average person does not.
5w/kg is awesome for us non-pros, but 5w/kg isn’t even anything special for pro cyclists in general.
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Thanks!
Yep, consistency is something that has helped me massively. I am in a position to train as such. No kids, very supportive wife and work schedule means I can do so. In terms of learning what worked for me, yes, It happened quickly but I think I got a little lucky on that front - I followed some general approaches and listened to how my body felt - adjusting accordingly.
In terms of testing I switched across the the KM/ Empirical Cycling FTP Tests - The Physiology of FTP and New FTP Test Protocols - discussed quite a lot in this thread: Kolie Moore's FTP test protocol
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I didn’t pick up a bike until I was 34 and got to 5 w/kg around 38 years old. Not a runner, but spend a lot of my winters in the past splitboarding. That helps build a huge engine. All the top CO xc racers are big into ski or splitboard touring, cross country skiing.
Back in the day played the typical sports in high school. I have no idea what my vo2 max is.
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I find the VO2 Max discussion interesting. After learning where it is on Intervals.icu (thanks @ojtCycling) I see that it shows me at 60.3. My garmin has me at 68.
I don’t understand how VO2 max “doesn’t change”. As people lose weight, and increase power and decrease heartrate at the same effort, the number naturally goes up right?
Or are they saying actual measured in a lab max oxygen usage does not increase with training?
I’m afraid you got the causation arrow backwards: they are at the top of those aerobic endeavors because the have huge engines
It does increase, but it is marginal compared to the baseline differences. Coggan had an estimate somewhere, think like 10-15%….but don’t quote me on that.
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That’s right.
@varmstrong vo2 max is the amount of oxygen you can process relative to your body weight. Similar to w/kg. The amount of oxygen your body can process for healthy trained athletes does change a bit, but it is far less responsive to training than the change in the amount of watts you can produce. ‘Training vo2max’ is training your ability to produce power at vo2 max breathing. You can meaningfully increase this. In other words, you can train to push more watts at a given level of oxygen consumption (or your body’s top o2 consumption). Essentially, all training is attempting to increase your ability to hold some power at a given percentage of vo2 max.
Trying to increase your ftp is basically just trying to increase the percentage of vo2max that you can sustain for an hour (or however you want to define it). That’s why vo2max is seen as a limiter for some sports or events. Some people have huge vo2 max so they can be dominant by utilizing a lower percentage of it. Some athletes, like lance Armstrong, are thought to have been able to utilize a very high percentage of their vo2 max (ie his ftp was achieved at a very high percentage of his vo2max breathing).
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