Both outdoors
One thing that I’ve been thinking about that I haven’t seen mentioned is genetics that plays into how tall you are and your ‘natural’ body composition tendency. I’d guess there is a sweet spot of height and natural body composition that balances high (enough) sustainable power vs weight / size.
Someone who is 6’5" / 90+kg is likely to generate above average absolute power, but getting the weight down or power crazy high to get to 5wkg is difficult. Someone who is very short would have the low height / weight but might have more problems building up sustainable power up based on their smaller muscles, blood volume, and other physical factors that go into it. There are some people who just will not be able to get to 5wkg no matter how hard they try even with optimal training / diet / rest. I’m not saying you said that, I don’t think you did, but it hasn’t been discussed here much.
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There is a reason that GC riders all look pretty similarly. 5’9 to 6’2, around 66-71kg
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Couldn’t agree more!!
I’ve always been a fairly lean and skinny person ( currently 64 - 66kg - 6ft/181cm - 19yrs old ) so the W/kg equation has always favoured me. But I know guys who would smoke me on the flat because of their larger frame, even though I “have a better W/KG”
Imagine if Ganna had though W/KG of Pogadjar though… Man that would be crazy
After yesterday’s long test and looking at the data, I’m stoked to check the 5w/kg box.
My weight fluctuates between 68 and 70kg (which is actually a little heavier than last year), I did 347w for 40’, WKO5 says 350mFTP and for training purposes I set my FTP to 345.
Here is the cliff notes, but much of this will be specific to me:
- Volume. More volume than I expected to be able to handle or think is normal. An average week right now is 14-16 hours and a low volume week is 10-12 hours. Oddly, I feel better with more work and more volume.
- Lots of long Z2 rides in the 3-5 hour range, mostly inside.
- Minimal anaerobic work. Maybe a sprinkling every few months max.
- Zero suprathreshold work that isn’t VO2 work (I never test or target the 10-20 minute range)
- Very very hard VO2 work (don’t ask, don’t want to get into it again…)
- More time in sweetspot/threshold > increasing power target. My coach prescribes a lot of mixed endurance and SST/threshold rides and they are an enjoyable way to drive TiZ in an adaptive way. This also works well for MTB since I can loop the same climb with some fun descending in between. One of my favorite rides is to ride from home to my favorite trail system, do 3x20 on the climb, descend in between efforts, then ride home.
Nutrition:
- Carbs. So. Many. Carbs. I feel like its my job to eat these days. On some of the longer endurance rides, I’m burning 3500-4500kj so it’s really hard to get enough calories in.
Does it feel different?
No. It felt really good for a few hours obviously, but then I was just looking at the next workout. There is no magical moment so if you don’t really enjoy the process of training, you aren’t going to suddenly be happy by hitting 5w/kg.
If I dip back below (which I’m sure I will during the natural ebb and flow of fitness), I won’t stress about it.
Edit: one more thing to add…if I have one piece of advice:
Figure out what your real FTP is in whatever manner you can get the best accuracy. It’s a huge ego hit if you’ve been estimating using a shorter test, but it makes your training way more fun, manageable, and sustainable. If you are using the 20 minute test, stop. A lot of the free tools out there estimate my FTP right now at like 365-370w and there is no way I’d be able to train with those zones.
When I switched from shorter tests to a longer test, my FTP dropped a good 25-30w. I did this in the middle of 2019 and went from 320w to 290w. It sucked for the first few weeks, but after that ego hit, it was all forward progress again.
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@stevemz Can you give some more details on the carb intake?
Base rides g/hr
Hard sessions g/hr
Recovery spins g/hg
Overall daily nutrition
Great work on getting to 5w/kg
I generally just eat to hunger cues. My one easy trick for base rides that are long is that if I start thinking about how much time I have left in the ride, I need to eat something. If I am not worried about how long the ride is, I’m eating enough.
Probably somewhere in the 60-80g per hour, plus a large carb meal before and large carb recovery drink. It’s tough to find the right mix of food and this is personal to everyone. I’m a big oatmeal guy for breakfast, with chia and flax, berries, honey, etc. Recovery drink is @ambermalika’s suggestion of gatorade powder and whey protein, which Alex Wild also uses. I do supplement with creatine in the recovery drink for a variety of reasons.
I’m about to get on the bike for a 3 hour hard session and adding it up, I probably have closer to 90g per hour, depending on how many carbs are in this delicious looking Cuban roll that I had leftover from last night 
Just electrolyte usually. I’ll have some protein with almond milk and bit of a snack after, but I don’t really eat anything if its an easy recovery spin.
If I am targeting race weight, it’s a lot of simple foods. English muffiins, eggs, broccoli, chicken, rice, etc. It’s easy to dial things in when you eat the same thing every day.
Right now, I’m not really too concerned about weight, so I just kind of eat what I feel like otherwise, while avoiding the non-nutritional foods. I have one beer a week on Sundays, rarely eat pastries, fries, etc.
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The only time I hit 5w/kg was through weight doping on Zwift. #truestory
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Not saying these are right or wrong for you but I do this :
- Base rides 40-60g/h 3-6h
- Hard rides 60g/h for 2-3h, 90-120g for 3h+
- Recovery rides or anything under 90 minutes just water (but fuel well before if its a hard ride).
Overall carb intake has to be very dependent on your lifestyle and training volume. I usually get ~75% of calories from carbohydrates though.
Hope this is useful.
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Great info.
I ask the question as I’m sure under fuelling has been a real problem for me. Especially on the bike. In the last few weeks (after the TTE podcast with the Bora guy) I’ve upped my nutrition and found recovery better and workout quality has improved.
Thanks
Thanks. For some reason I have been very cautious about overdoing carbs. As if it will blunt the training effect or something.
Haha underdoing it will be blunting your legs that’s for sure.
Training with low carbohydrate availability has some promising beneficial effects on cell signalling, but there are no studies than show a benefit in performance so far. It also comes with many proven negatives such as increased cortisol/muscle breakdown and reduced immune function. It also is hard to balance with hitting your quality interval days with full stores to maximise those.
Personally there aren’t enough benefits to make me include any in my training anymore (I’ve done low carb training before and didn’t see much benefit apart from the negatives).
It might be more appropriate for ultra-cyclists or someone trying to win the GC in a three week grand tour but for most amateurs and elites I think it is overhyped. Just fuel up and push some watts.
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Completely agree. Low-carb/fasted rides just aren’t worth the hassle for amateurs
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Say what? 
My stomach cannot manage all the food I eat and fuel every ride on the bike to get somewhat close to energy expendure on the bike combined with everday life. If you try to eat “clean” getting enough carbs and kcal is basically a second job 
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To add to the carb debate and the issues of not having enough…
Yesterday I did about 40 minutes on Z, basically getting warmed up with a few sprints etc then was going to do another hour at Z2 before I decided to do a 96km grand Fondo event. I had not factored in the amount of food I needed but figured I’d crack on.
After about 90 minutes (so over 2 hours total) and being in the front group of 16, down from a few hundred, (including pro Ali Brownlee) ,I started to suffer. Not because of the pace but lack of fuel.
Anyway, 30 minutes later as we approached the final climb the lights went out and a basically had a double leg puncture. Classic bonk!
But to my point, today I had to scrap my bike session due to leg soreness which always seems to happen after under fuelling!
Lesson learned: I’m entering that turbo room fully stocked whatever the session!
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Number one reason why I fail workouts is because I didn’t eat enough the day before.
This is why I think the recovery drink switch has been so helpful recently. It has WAY MORE carbs.
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Did you ramp into that amount of volume? How many 3-5 hour Z2 rides a week? Congratulations on hitting 5 w/Kg!
Not intentionally but it was a byproduct of a few factors, including Covid.
Z2 volume depends on the week and objective. No hard or fast rule, but I really enjoy it these days so I’ll usually fill extra time after intervals to ride to target duration with Z2.
I do a lot of steady endurance during recovery weeks.
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This, always got to be one step ahead!
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5 w/kg. I wish I could say I was there but I’m not. However, I’m on a good slope of improvement at the moment…+30W on threshold in eight weeks. Right now it’s about 290W for 20 minutes. I will need 350W at 20 minutes to claim 5 w/kg for FTP (335W at 67 kg). This probably won’t happen until some time in 2022. I don’t know how much I can gain this year but breaching 300W FTP is definitely the goal by the end of October. So that gives me plenty of time on the current slope of improvement. Not sure how long it lasts but, having not done any Z3/Z4 work for 18 months prior to last December, maybe the dreaded plateau can be avoided…at least for this year.
Right now it’s 18 - 20 hrs (more if the weather is good) on my off weeks and around 12 - 14 hrs on my work weeks. Heavy on upper Z2 (3 - 5 hrs at 75% FTP) with an 80/20 split. 2x/wk intensity at 2 hrs total time…10 min threshold repeats (88 - 91% mhr) are the current staple, with some longer 15 - 25 minute efforts at 90 - 95% sprinkled in.
Haven’t started any “real” Vo2 yet. Probably beginning in April.
I could probably do more Z3 and Z4 but (since I’m an ectomorph/slow-twitch build) I’m reticent to tamper with slow-twitch development afforded by Z2. Those fibers contribute to overall power so they shan’t be neglected at ANY COST. I’m actually on a progressive Z2 plan. Increasing power by 5 watts (ERG mode) every four weeks…as long as heart rate stays in the LT1 range (127 - 135 bpm…by lactate test).
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