How did you 5w/kg+ riders make it there?

Sorry, bad wording. I didn’t mean to imply anything about your lifestyle, just that society as a whole shapes perceptions about what a healthy body looks like.

I think if you asked the average person which person below is healthier, they’d go with JJ. Jan Frodeno would probably be seen by the average person as somewhat frail if they saw him in street cloths. From my perspective as a cyclist/endurance athlete, I see Jan as the fitter/healthier of the 2. Nothing frail or weak about him, despite being 6’4" and I think he raced at under 160lbs.

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I would suggest that many people would think JJ is stronger but Frodeno is more fit.

Also don’t really feel like BMI is a very helpful metric in general just due to how everyone’s body composition is so different.

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6’4 155 is clinically a “normal” body weight by bmi. It’s another discussion about what’s “worth” it for a hobby, but we should at least be on the same page that, while thin and certainly on the lower end of normal, it’s not defined as underweight. I think it’s important to not associate skinny/thin with eating disorders, etc; very different things.

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I’m sorry but we are most definitely not on the same page as regards to a man of those particular dimensions being classed as ‘underweight’. Just because BMI may state that’s fine doesn’t mean it is so - BMI has long been known as a poor way to measure oneself and I really don’t think you get to point to it as gospel all of a sudden when it suits your argument.

I feel bad now because this is descending into the realm of skinny shaming and that was not my intent - I just wanted to call attention to the fact there is a very real, very dangerous attitude toward weight and body perception within our sport.

I apologise if I have stepped over the line.

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You’re right; statistically, BMI underreports obesity.

I feel bad now because this is descending into the realm of skinny shaming and that was not my intent - I just wanted to call attention to the fact there is a very real, very dangerous attitude toward weight and body perception within our sport.

I apologise if I have stepped over the line.

I’m not the 6’4 155 lb person, but at least on my end, I do get where you’re coming from. “Health” encompasses a lot of things. Is a very low BMI and high w/kg ‘healthier’ than a more middle ground bmi and middle wkg? I don’t know, and don’t want to try to answer that here, but it’s worth thinking about. I think as any of us as athletes get closer and closer to the ‘point,’ we start making choices that might not be the best from a zoomed out view. Whatever decision we end up making, it’s probably a good thing that we’re having the chat and keeping the decision conscious rather than accidentally ending up somewhere unintended. FWIW I’m 6ft 148 or so and wouldn’t want to lose anything; I’m very thin to the average person (and also not 5wkg).

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Totally agree here Justin. My appetite is huge so under-eating is not an issue for me. They only time I can say I honestly felt to skinny/light was about 3 years ago. I hit 143 lbs at 6 ft. 4. Definitely felt weak at this weight.

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:joy: :+1:t2:

People‘s builds are quite variable though yeah? I mean, I’m 159 at 5’10.5”, which apparently makes me heavy? Yet I have veins showing in my abdomen and popping out of my quads, so I’m pretty damn lean. My wife says I’m bony. I know I can lose more weight and I intend to, just to see what w/kg I can achieve. But I don’t see where it would come from if I lost more than maybe 5 pounds. Getting to 148 would be crazy skinny for me, and I wonder if it would be possible to maintain my power at that weight even if I could somehow get there. And it’s not like I am lifting weights or work on upper body mass at all. The guys talking about being 132 pounds at my height, or the 6’4” guy, are just built differently. Your legs must be half the circumference of mine. I mean, look at Greg Van Avaermat. He’s like 5’11” and 163. Should he cut down to 137 lb? He did 434 watts in the virtual tour of Flanders = 5.89w/kg for 43 min. Hell, he’d be doing 7 w/kg if he only lost 26lb—right in the healthy range for BMI, right? No, this is absurd. Some guys are built like the schlecks, some guys are built like GVA. It’s about how lean you are. Nobody should be carrying around more than 6, 7% body fat if they want to really climb. But for some of us that fat percentage leaves us heavier.

It probably doesn’t make much sense to fixate on weighing some number of pounds as much as getting super lean.

All that said, now I’m intrigued about whether I can get to 148 and still keep my watts…

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Ironic and hypocritical given my username incorporates my weight goal! :crazy_face::joy::rofl::joy::nerd_face::sweat_smile:

Just caught that

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What do you mean bmi has long been known to be a poor way to measure oneself? (Btw Jon, I don’t intend this to be an attacking tone toward you; it’s just that the topic of BMI gets me all riled up!)

All I’ve seen to that effect are unresearched articles snowballing that claim from other bloggers and journalists who made the same baseless claim until it became the prevailing “common sense” take on bmi.

The idea is based on the “common sense” idea that “nfl players and bodybuilders are considered obese according to bmi charts, so it’s not a valid measurement. If you have more muscle mass you can be categorized as overweight or obese even if you’re fairly lean, ergo bmi is OBVIOUSLY invalid.” However, as far as I know, actual research demonstrates that adverse health outcomes are indeed clearly correlated with higher BMIs, IRRESPECTIVE of leanness. Carrying around 50 extra pounds of muscle isn’t healthy either.

Furthermore, have you ever seen somebody who slots in around 24.9 BMI at single-digit body fat? They’re super jacked. I mean, take that pic of frodeno, who apparently weighs <160 but is ripped, and just imagine FORTY POUNDS of muscle on his frame. He’d be absolutely huge, yet he’d still be in the “healthy” category of BMI at that weight! People with no real personal experience of true fitness make all kinds of false assumptions about how much body fat and lean mass they carry around, and about how being low weight makes you small or skinny. If they actually ever got fit they’d see that what they thought they’d look like at, say, 185 pounds is actually still chubby, and they’d need to get down to 165 to have that look they want.

I have a buddy who lifts like crazy; he’s 5’10” and about 195lb, and he is pretty yolked. Big arms, chest, back, and legs too. But he could easily lose 20lb. You can’t see his fat very well because he has a bigger frame to carry it on, but it’s there—you really can’t even see any of his stomach muscles, for example. The point is, this is a super muscled guy with incredible strength who has not stopped lifting since freshman year of high school (28 years), an ex-D1 collegiate scholarship athlete, and he is in the overweight category by bmi, and he (A) should be classified as such, and (b) he has way more muscle than 99.99% of all these armchair “experts” blogging and penning articles for big publications who make this stupid claim about bmi not being legit because “it depends on your muscle mass,” yet if he just lost the fat on his belly he’d actually be in the healthy category of bmi! If HE doesn’t have too much muscle mass to fit into the healthy category, literally almost nobody does. So tell me, who TF are these articles aimed at? Basically NO ONE in the general population has anywhere close to the muscle mass necessary to skew their BMI. And according to the actual literature, even the outliers who do would still be better off if they carried less mass!

I’ll tell you what these articles and this prevailing thought are all about: not the legitimacy of the BMI scale, but rather making people feel better about being fat: “Oh, well I read BMI is outdated and inaccurate because muscle, so I’ll just stay where I’m at.” I have another buddy who’s about 5’7” and 190, and his doctor told him he’s on the cusp of being obese according to BMI. He says “I don’t feel like I’m obese. I don’t think I look obese. I heard BMI isn’t really that accurate anyway.” So he doesn’t lose the weight! Fricking ridiculous, man. I guarantee you longevity and health outcomes are strongly correlated with lower body mass, regardless of lean body mass.

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Here is a visual reference: Ride Photos / Action Shots! - #539 by stevemz

5’11, 148 pounds, around 9% bodyfat from a Dexa scan. I’ve got chunky legs, slim torso.

I could probably safely get down to around 145, but no more than that. I’m about 90% confident that I’ll be >5w/kg during 2021 season, given this years numbers on both the power side and weight side (they just didn’t occur at the same time and were about 6 weeks off)

Look fit as hell! I’m gonna keep the W/kg project going on both sides of the equation for sure. Maybe I can get down under 150.

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Did the 5w/kg riders do a lot of sweet spot (Zone 3) progression work to get there? E.g One/two sessions of 2x20 @ 90% FTP one week, one/two sessions of 2x25 @90% for the next two weeks etc.

Or was it mainly just threshold work and extending the time spent at threshold (Zone 4) each week/fortnight to get to the 5w/kg mark?

Happy to be pointed in the right direction if this has already been answered somewhere!

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I’m also 5”11, on this shot from a few months ago I would have been 146-147 (night time hill climb).

My aim is to be 142lb for the National Hill Climb in 6 weeks.

image

image

142lb is too light to maintain, 146-147 I can be healthy at but happy to be 150 from November to April. At that point I just begin to monitor things and make adjustments.

Oh btw, that puts me about 4.8wkg so not quite 5! :rofl:. But I did 405W for 5 minutes that night which was a power Pb.

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I’m at 5.54 W/kg at the moment and found these to be the most useful sessions:

1 ) 8min efforts @107~%
2) Long upper Z2 rides
3) 3-4 20min efforts @97-98%

MOST IMPORTANTLY CONSISTENCY!!

Hope this helps :+1:t2:

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How do you determine that these were/are the most useful sessions? Did you follow a different training regime for a while and saw no improvement? Only when you included these sessions performance increased?

I found that the mix of intensity both below and above threshold meant that I was never limited by my ceiling (thanks to the intensity above threshold), or my floor (thanks to the base and intensity below threshold).

I started to really focus on this structure at the start of the year, achieving a 20min power of 327W @ 63Kg. In my most recent 20min test that I did last month I achieved 366W atthe same weight.

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I would just add those are the most useful sessions for you, but people respond to training differently. not just in terms of specific sessions but also training intensity, zone distribution and training volume. So take time to find out what works for you. if there was a “magic” session everyone would be doing it (there’s still a fair amount of variation in how the best pros train).

fwiiw the most useful training sessions for me are:

  • long lower z2 rides 4-6h @55-60%
  • long lower tempo efforts (progressively built each week) e.g. 3x15’, 3x20’, 3x30’, 2x45’, 1x90’, 1x120’
  • 5x4’ or 3x8’ VO2 max intervals
  • and most importantly rest days moving as little as possible and eating plenty

I would also add I find it useful working in blocks focusing on a certain area. e.g. a strength block in the gym, long tempo block, a Vo2 block. a certain session won’t do much unless it’s built into a structured program.

although there is good advice on this forum thread, try not to get too caught up in what other riders are doing (not just because plenty are doing a fair bit wrong). Just work out what is a good fit for you, apply progressive overload, and don’t skimp on rest or carbs

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What volume are you guys doing (hours/TSS) to get there ?
thanks !

Just sneaked into 5W/Kg so can finally reply :grinning:

@TheGuil I average around 20h p/w; TSS is probably pretty low compared to other riders of similar W/Kg, usually around 700-900 p/w (a lot of this is LSD). Reason TSS is “low” is because I’ve recently upped the hours p/w and don’t want to add intensity and volume simultaneously.

Following a broadly polarised training approach, I don’t look at TSS too much and tend to focus on kJs.

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