How do it increase number of vo2 sessions? Are you saying ingesting carbs during workout rather than after; means less recovery time needed?
Mind I only do two vo2 max sessions a week and don’t intend to do them more frequently. So maybe I’m not the target for fueling mid session to increase frequency of sessions.
I regularly am doing between 1800 and 2400 kJ rides before 7 AM, 5 days a week. At least two of these are high intensity - call it one VO2 and one threshold per week. This morning, for example, I did 2:20 and 2,200 kJ, starting at 4:50 AM.
I fuel during, not before the ride, at roughly 400 calories/hour. Before I had some tea and a little caffeine. During the warm-up I started eating sugar (gels and swedish fish today) and didn’t stop until I was about 20 minutes from the finish. Had around 800 calories during
For lower intensity early morning stuff I eat more fruit and slower carbs, although I will still mix in some of the higher octane stuff - for these I typically run closer to 300 calories/hour, but still all carbs.
I find extended threshold work comparatively harder early in the morning than VO2. On Friday I spent 64 minutes (with breaks) at FTP with a 4:55 AM start - for that I needed drink mix (skratch works well for me) in addition to the gels - to make sure I was keeping the sugar coming during the long intervals
4 Likes
Yes, probably, on net, for a training program that is optimally pushing someone for maximum rate of adaptations.
It may also improve quality of other sessions in your training.
Most of all, it’s likely to allow for:
- Better training adaptation in general.
- Better ability to fuel at higher rates when called upon in race scenarios or other longer-duration higher-intensity training.
1 Like
Man, why are you diligent in hating on fueling/carbs? You might not fuel those workouts, but please don’t keep arguing that it is optimal/preferred to not fuel V02 or other morning sessions in every case, for every person. That’s undeniably false.
It’s possible to get away with on occasion, but there is literally no downside to using a carb drink, at the very least, even during 1hr rides. And if you aren’t focused on weight, there’s even less of absolutely no reason to avoid carbs!
Now if you will excuse me, I am going to go back to drinking sugar water like a hummingbird.
There’s nothing to get away with. Never have fuelled vo2 sessions. Never been a problem. Seen year on year benefits. When people use things like likely, It translates as that person is speculating.without evidence.
Asking for the evidence or even just plain disagreeing something is necessary isn’t hating. Nothing like it.
1 Like
Or it’s a researcher giving credence to the fact that until things are absolutely air tight through countless repeated studies, it’s prudent not to say such things as absolutes. It’s out of respect for the small probability that it may be wrong.
When I speculate, I tend to use words like, “I would bet” or “I suspect” or “just guessing here.”
As for evidence, Dr. Louise Burke’s work on Google Scholar is a good place to start, especially things more recent than 2015. She is an amazingly thorough and thoughtful researcher. (I have no affiliation and have never interacted with her at any level.)
3 Likes
… and lights out!
1 Like
Technically speaking if the pre ride meal is 30mins - 1 hour pre ride (eat 9am ride 10am) can it be low or no carb if the preceding day has replenished glycogen (how ever much that is)? and the on the ride you fuel with 40-50g per hour or so.
Basically, find my digestion is quite slow and with anything more than a few eggs and some fruit or avocado i feel ill on the bike and or get an energy crash. Almost like less if more in term of how i feel. FYI have possibly been low carb for riding max 250g c at 52kg per day for quite a while. That said looking to stack on weight as well as it’ll only help my power and ftp.
Yes it can be. Should it be… well… it should kind of be “nothing” if you’re forced into eating in that 30-60min window. You’d be better off having just super simple carbs ~10-20min prior to training. Reason: rebound hypoglycemia is more likely when consuming food/carbs 30-75min before training.
Makes sense. Most folks don’t respond positively to heavy consumption within 90min of starting to train. ~2 hrs before exercise would be a better target. But don’t lose sleep doing so. Better to preserve sleep and use the carbs-immediately-before method than to cut an hour of sleep just to digest a bigger breakfast.
Yeah, that’s the rebound hypoglycemia from eating in that dreaded 30-75min pre-training window. The more you eat, the more prominent the response will be, usually.
Prior to your posts several months back I’d never heard of rebound hypoglycemia - I also never investigated it, so that’s on me. But since I heard you mention it all I’ve done prior to morning hard rides is make a little extra of my malto/sugar/sodium citrate (also thanks to you) sports drink and start drinking that as I’m moving around in the 10-20 minutes pre ride. It’s changed everything - whereas what I had done previously is eat right in the middle of that rebound window.
3 Likes
Game-changer! Rebound hypo is the worst. (for me)
I do pretty much all of my training early.
I stumble out of bed, into my bibs and suck on a caffeine gel while I’m warming up. Have a carb drink prepared the night before on the bike and just get into it with the aim to finish the bottle by the end of the workout. Typically follow the ride by getting out of the chamois straight away and then hitting up a solid breakfast (bircher and fruit), protein shake and juice. Seems to work really well for n=1.
For lower intensity or early morning group rides, I’ll tend to just tick along on water and then hit breakfast on my return.
2 Likes
So as long as your refuel sufficiently after the ride in the rest of the days a small breakfast is fine? As in total daily kcals fuel the next days training?
Would a low-carb breakfast still elicit the rebound hypoglycaemia response?
EDIT @Dr_Alex_Harrison - reactive hypoglycaemia makes so much sense, i assume this is the lightheadedness i am feeling about 2-3 hours after my post-workout meal which is usually 100g rice and some meat (50-60g P). Is there any way to stop this apart from eating more?
Small breakfast is fine if you meet kcal & carb needs for the day.
Yes, but maybe less. Maybe not less. Probably at least 50% related to size of meal. Going low-carb in that same time-window will still present GI issues in training, unless it’s a very small meal.
Yes, probably.
Yes. Eat more fiber and fat post-workout, and just plan to eat again sooner.
Fiber and fat slow the digestion rate of anything they’re consumed with and will steady out the blood sugar response post-training.
2 Likes
Those are seriously early starts! Cannot imagine guzzling sugar while the clock still reads 4!
Probs explain why i feel best when eating a small meal and jumping straight on the bike.
The easiest way to estimate carb requirements? For kcals did TDEE (sedentary) + what i burn on the bike from power meter + 500kcals to gain weight.
Yay for avocado!
1 Like
im quite lucky, i can seem to eat anything anytime without too much impact. I have a small serving of overnight oats sitting in the fridge with a little coffee in it. Eat those as im getting ready and organised. Jump on the bike, ride a bit to warm up, then just get started. Take the carb drink with me and start on it early
@Dr_Alex_Harrison could it be worth reducing PWO carbs a little to limit the unusual in response and having more on the bike? Then upping fat PWO. Or just add more add to the norm.
It seems like you are arguing against the idea that fueling workouts makes them more productive and assists with recovery. VO2 workouts are not an exception to this. I’d be surprised if you got anyone here to agree that fueling a workout isn’t beneficial in some way, whether it’s large or small. 27 minutes of VO2 consumes a good deal more energy than other workouts of lower intensity, so I’m not sure why you think having food onboard and ready to use wouldn’t be helpful. And as Alex and others have said, even beyond the actual energy application, it cognitively helps lower the RPE. Chad mentioned a study a few months ago in a podcast that the simple act of swishing sugary liquid in your mouth helped with RPE, so it doesn’t take much to add value and given workouts usually are at the limit, any value may be the difference between success and failure
1 Like